Nowt. Nothing.

Thanks.

You learn something new every day. =)

And I do hope the talk remains just that. I pray Tim finds some other incrediable pilot to turn into a series(not on Fox, though third time might be charm for him) and by next year we are anxiously awaiting that and not some" lets watch Angel light and his wonderful soul."

Did you really enjoy Doug's commentaries?

Heh. Yeah, I really did. They were entertaining, and they made me appreciate the episodes more, which is one thing I really like about some commentaries. Fury's "Helpless" commentary did that too. I never caught the Little Red Hiding Hood stuff before. Plus, he gave a lot of interesting backstory about how that episode came to exist.

You know, I think we missed that one.

But you do have a prodigious list, there Kristen. If I can ever drink more than one drink again, I'll have to try it. On further consideration, all of the scenes in The Zeppo where Xander is trying to get someone's attention seem like good indicators for potential drinking games in the early years (thinking especially of the big Buffy/Angel teary eyed "I can't lose you AGAIN!" scene here). Man, do you remember Tim's brilliant work on Buffy Season 3?

As for the whole soul thing, I Love Buffy, but I always found it hard that she so easily accepted this" he has got a soul thing so he is must be good and forgiven", yet turned her back on characters like Faith, Anya and even Giles when they stubbled and had to EARN thier redemption. Sorry for the new rant.

What I didn't understand was how the shows (yes, both of them) seemed to convey that souled vampires were undoubtedly good by the virtue of their souls alone, yet humans with souls were out there doing evil things every day. I guess we can fanwank that maybe there was still good left in them, or something, but I always just chalk it up to an inconsistency in the mythology.

I came away from both shows thinking Faith's journey was the must emotional and true to the character and continuity. Everything was hard. nothing was ever easy. And forgivness was almost always withheld, while then rewarded to people like Andrew and vampire who less then a few weeks ago was being controlled by the first and crazy. I also loved that in the end she still was there trying, she never got an easy way out, even when she was doing the right thing.

The soul issue was so muddled by the end of both shows. Recent Fury comments that said Spike always had the capabilty to love and piece of his humanity, made me think that him having a soul was not that big of deal. That made what he did without a soul even worse if he knew what love was and he had humanity in him. Unlike Angelus. I never understood why he was given a soul and why there was no difference between spike souled and spike unsouled, like Angel and Angelus. I guess that can also get chalked up to bad continuity and to many cooks in the kitchen.

Question.

Since Tim said he was asked to write and direct this thing, and he said he would. Why is there talk about other writers? Would not he be the only writer and his writting team be editors, copiers, and such?

Kiba Rika- Maybe this fanwank can help you. I think that when a vampire loses it's soul, and then gets it back, the soul still remains fully intact. The vampire still retains the same level of morality that it had when it was a human, before they vamped out. Plus, they feel immediately bad for what they've done, because their moral side never condoned their actions in the first place. However, with a human who never lost his/her soul, but went bad, it's a different story. Their morals, and to an extent, their soul, has been decayed. They never lost their soul, they only damaged it. Their being evil has nothing to do with them not having a soul, it just has to do with who they are, and the situation they were put in. So I suppose that if an evil person became a vamp and then got a soul, they would still be bad. However, Angel and Spike weren't really bad before they were vamped. Misguided, maybe. Evil, definitely not. So, they were able to attempt to do good when they got their souls back.

to convey that souled vampires were undoubtedly good by the virtue of their souls alone

But both Spike and Angel wanted to do good. And when Angel didn't want to do good, he wasn't very good at all.

Also, she's ridden their penises, so they get extra forgiveness points.

At least, that's how I saw it. It got way blurry about when I figured Lorne had no soul, so I stopped thinking too hard.

I might buy that BUT, Liam was not the psycopath that Angelus was. He was a wastral, drunk and womanizer, not uncommon for those times, but he was not baby killer, rapist, or torturer. He did love his sister and mother. he wanted attention from his father. Angelus loved no one. Not even Darla. Yet Darla loved her darling boy, souled or unsouled. There is big difference in personality,humanity and morality between Angelus, Angel and Liam.

Yet none of that was ever shown with the Spike character. William, souled Spike and unsouled Spike were all the same.

Hey you can fanwank Faith and Buffy had something in that missing scene in bad girls. You know where Buffy and her not only got the stitches to fix their hurts but how they also seems so very jazzed. hugry and horny. Just a thought.

How were William and unsouled Spike the same? How were William and souled Spike the same? They were a concatenation of experiences, and not discrete, but definitely not the same.

It all makes my brain hurt. Spike wanted to do good before he had a soul. Was it just to get into Buffy's pants? Yes, but you can't tell me he didn't want to again after he had a soul. The biggest difference I see in ensouledness between Angel and Spike is that Angel wants to atone for all the things he did, whereas Spike didn't seem interested in that. I think we can chalk that up to differences in philosophy - Spike's never seemed too interested in the past to me, with the exception of wanting to get Dru back.

Mostly I am kinda tired of Spike, but if anyone can revive my interest in him, it's Tim. Boyfriend always wanted a show that had as its core cast Angel, Spike, Riley (post-Buffy pre-marriage), Faith and Wesley. Dark, dark, dark. I'd have watched.