if you say that it's a *personal* moral line, that's different. But saying that there is some cultural-societal moral line is not something I can support.

It's decidedly the former. It's profound *personal* discomfort and I make no pretentions toward declaring it as any kind of a universal line.

I'm sorry if it looks like we're ganging up on you, SA. For what it's worth, I really appreciate you participating in the discussion in a calm, rational fashion. I haven't really read Wincest, and most of my take on it comes from listening on the LJ discussions where people are squeeing and bursting into pieces about how hot the way Dean looked at Sam and vice verse, and oh yeah, they're totally doing it behind the closed motel door, and how the writers are so into fanservice with all the boys-being-mistaken-gay stuff, since they clearly know the fans want them to get it on, etc. etc. This reads to me more like "OMG HOT" school of thought, but I'm probably getting only a limited, superficial impression of the particular corner of the fandom.

As for fic -- I do think I'd have much easier time with it if the incest aspect is problematized and tragic, but I just can't see the part where both Sam and Dean could reconcile themselves to this and could look forward to a hopeful future together with great sex lives, because my brain just refuses to go there. And no, I have no expectations that anyone who enjoys Wincest would stop writing it, just because it makes me uncomfortable. Not at all. I feel like I should be able to express a measure of displeasure about this particular fandom trend though.

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Dean does Nanowrimo

Which continues to amuse me. I *heart* crack.

I think this was the first SPN story that I read. And I read it before I watched the show (okay, I watched the pilot but the horror movie bits were too good at what they were trying to do and I didn't watch again for a while) to the point where a quick scan led me to realize I had mentally swapped the characters.

Now I need to read it again. Because, yes, love the crack. And sometimes it leads me to stuff that I like in both crack and more traditionally well done forms.

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This reads to me more like "OMG HOT" school of thought,

This is kind of the same school of thought that turns snape into a woobie. Or have Duncan and Methos set up house in Ibiza. Or, like one unfortunate girl I knew, turn Blair Sandburg into a sprite (a fucking *sprite*) that flies around Jim's head.

I would agree that it seems like more BNF-y, well known writers have gone that route than seems to be the norm in previous fandoms, and who knows why that is; the destructive prettiness of the cast, perhaps? Or something. Anyway, without trying to pull any old school fan bullshit, I started watching Supernatural when it first aired, and some of the first fic that came out of the fandom was Wincest. Not the hearts and flowers crap, that came later. So when I think of Wincest in fandom, I think of that first fraught, tense brotherly line, because I'd come straight out of Numb3rs 'cest, which has a similar, if more age-oriented, dynamic. And I never followed the other lines that inevitably came as more people poured into the fandom. So I'm sure, Nutty, that I'm missing some things that you're talking about, but they've never interested me because I had this other line that deals with the many ramifications that, as Vonnie points out, make the story in the first place.

For what it's worth, I really appreciate you participating in the discussion in a calm, rational fashion.

No problem.

although I happen to share it with, you know, Levi-Strauss. I mostly do that though because it's boring to have to explain again and again that using nuclear weapons, when a frightened guy with a big rock would do, is irritating.

I don't understand what that has to do with what we're talking about, and while I understand and respect L-S I disagree with him on many things.

I feel like I should be able to express a measure of displeasure about this particular fandom trend though.

I think you should too; but what is frustrating for me is hearing it framed in the listen-to-my-moral-objections. Which is not what you were doing, but I still feel like I get it from all sides for liking Wincest and liking that it's a more common trend in a fandom I like. I'm not trying to change your mind, but it's kind of like being told your cake tastes gross when you really like your cake. *shrug* neither of us can do anything about our different cake preferences, but that doesn't mean our cake preferences are or should be a point of contention.

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It's pointless to grouse about something that has no controls. Which, again, I'm not trying to police anyone or anyone's feelings, but I don't really understand.

Well, I try not to grouse as a general rule, but sometimes I forget and do it anyway, and then we all stand around awkwardly until someone pulls another cake out of the oven.

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I started watching Supernatural when it first aired, and some of the first fic that came out of the fandom was Wincest.

And, as we've talked about elsewhere, I can totally see (from reading the Yuletide 2005 stuff and looking at where canon was at that point, especially with what had and had not been revealed about Dean in particular--Sammy's not my sticking point with it not working for me a good 99% of the time) where that came from, while also *not* being able to really buy it for myself because of where canon went, and how I consumed the first 24 episodes (in a week). Though, you know, obviously from recent responses to the show, milage varies there.

but that doesn't mean our cake preferences are or should be a point of contention

This is true. And I was very happy for you when I saw that one of the best bakers out there was using an ingredient you love.

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So I'm sure, Nutty, that I'm missing some things that you're talking about, but they've never interested me because I had this other line

Doesn't interest me either, but -- I observe trends, and happy-fun is very trendy. (I probably wouldn't read the unhappy-unfun either, but, I'm at least more likely to respect it, for all the reasons you cite.)

As Consuela notes, it's a wanky topic; one of the reasons none of the discussion happening here is happening on LJ is because of the wank-potential in a vacuum. (Whereas, we are all grownups here, or anyway we fake it magnificently.)

I made the crack about Levi-Strauss to emphasize that, while we are all talking about incest as a taboo, like vinyl hip boots or like saying a swear word in front of your grandma, it's kind of the Mother Of All Taboos in historical western culture, and thus deserves to be discussed on a different level from your garden-variety line-crossage. Maybe the line stilll should be crossed, for whatever narrative reason, but, it definitely deserves a heightened level of attention when it is.

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You know, I am sure I would read wing fic I liked, as I have read almost every other semi-popular thing and liked it (RPS, incest, mpreg). T

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Coming late to the conversation, but loving seeing both sides of it so well stated. I kind of feel my cake preferences* are so particular to me that I just kind of have to go my own way and watch everyone else go theirs, but I love seeing the thought processes behind the choices.

• I can't read Wincest, of any sort (even Wingfic) because one day I got stuck in traffic and started thinking very bad thoughts about the family dynamics of incest and of the Winchesters, and how they intersect and what this would say about John and now I can't get past it, even if it weren't for the whole "isn't their world already fucked up enough" factor. I can and do however read a very narrowly defined subset of SPN RPS, which I always thought squicked and/or bored me, and mostly still does, except here, for some reason.

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Oh, right, Lee, we had that talk at Sparky's, didn't we? About how the fact of sibling incest might tie back to father-son incest and that wasn't anywhere we wanted to go.

Yeah, I'm even less "my beautiful cake" when it comes to John and either one of the boys. John's got enough problems, that just isn't one I want to lay on him. And I know someone could write that story and it could be well-told and psychologically complex and I just--no. I can't continue to like or respect John with those thoughts in my head.

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Yep.

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