In real life, I don't believe that you can use tools of manipulation without getting a charge out of being able to manipulate.

Really? When I taught, I did it all the time. Sometimes, as a matter of fact, I was annoyed I had to manipulate, but it was necessary to break up a bad dynamic or goose a kid into particpating or whatever.

I have to agree, but in the end, you really have to chalk that up to it being a movie. You need more face-to-face-like interaction for these scenes to work in a film.

I agree. Totally. Like I said, scene cool.

Bruce wanted a symbol that would be incorruptable and immortal. That's what he created, something that lurks in shadows, seems to be every where at once, and can take on all of them at once and still beat them down.

He wants to stop them and instill fear in them, and I think he did a fantastic job of that (relevent but spoilery) when he's got Flask, or what's his name and Batman's treating him like a yo yo. He's being thrown around by some scary creature and when Batman growls "Swear to me!" is so perfect. Whether they live or die depends on Batman. Not their crime boss, not god. Batman. He can snatch them up, drop them down, beat the ever loving shit out of them, and they only walk away because HE decides.

Batman appears from nowhere, can disappear, he can fly, they can shoot him and he keeps coming, etc. Wouldn't you fear that?

askye: hot damn, that scene was cool.

Bruce wanted a symbol that would be incorruptable and immortal.

And some bitchin' marketing opportunities.

Sorry, sorry. I'll stop. I'm like the snake in the garden of Eden, aren't I?

I don't believe that you can use tools of manipulation without getting a charge out of being able to manipulate

I'm with Robin. I think it's just another set of things you can do -- sometimes you're driven by what you see as the requirements of the situation, not by something as personal as pleasure.

I'm like the snake in the garden of Eden, aren't I?

I think you think you should like Batman, and are conflating the character failing you with the movie's failings.

I think the two are very distinct.

Nothing remotely snakey about it.

The commercial I am thinking of, P-C, is from some years back, where a guy on a football team is totally crushed in a tackle. They take him off to the sidelines, take off his helmet, and ask him, "How many fingers am I holding up?" He says: "Three."

Coach says, "Who am I?" Player says, "Coach."

Coach says, "Who are you?" Player gets this amazed, delighted look on his face: "I... am Batman!"

You know, I can't remember what the commercial was selling at all. I just remember that, after the product placement, there's the player, standing up, shouting, "To the Batmobile! Away!!"

Now that I've resolved a computer problem by rebooting, I can comment.

After "To the Batmobile! Away!" there's a voiceover saying, "Not going anywhere for awhile?" Then suggests you have a Snickers bar to keep those hunger pangs from getting too bad.

I think you think you should like Batman,

There's got to be a reason to get involved with the character, right? "Like" may not be the word, but I do think I should empathize with him.

and are conflating the character failing you with the movie's failings.

Well, if the protagonist fails to work, the movie's got a good chance of being doomed, in my mind. Awesome secondary characters can only help so much.

His superego gets stronger, I think, *because* he's afraid of his id getting out.

I think the scenes toward the beginning of The Dark Knight Returns look a lot like Bruce's id getting out. He watches scenes of his city falling apart until he breaks, and resumes his old Batman identity. But then, he also seems to get a certain satisfaction out of hurting the bad guys here that he doesn't show in Justice League or in Batman Begins. But again, it's set after years of trauma and damage.

I'm not talking about the movie when I say you think you should like Batman, Nutty. I'm talking about the character, as depicted in the comics in the past ten years. If you don't like him, why should you like the movie?

It's not the movie's fault you don't like him. It's a pre-existing condition.

The movie hasn't failed the character so much as the character (even before the movie) failed you.

Not that I'm saying the movie's perfect, but a discussion of how the movie failed the character would talk about different things from your objections.