I've seen it discussed, here and elsewhere, about Wesley's tendency to assume whatever option hurts him personally is The Correct And Moral Choice. Mark's review of Birthday suddenly got me wondering whether it was a general thing the show says, in light of Cordelia's choice to keep the visions and be demonized. Angel seems pretty willing to accept punishment, but he has a lot of genuine guilt. Do you think Fred or Gunn are ever put in that position, or other characters?

I think the show is a lot about self-sacrifice, which with Angel and Wes tends to involve some self-hatred. NSM, with Cordy, Fred and Gunn.

It's a little weird to me all the Cordy love over there. I mean, I do enjoy the character but she wouldn't be in my top five in the Whedonverse.

I'm as taken aback by the Cordy-love as I was by the Xander-hate.

On Angel? Cordelia is strongly motivated by guilt and the desire to make up for past sins. Just like Doyle and Wesley. It's not as big an ongoing thing for Gunn but he's certainly drenched in guilt for his introduction.

It's a little weird to me all the Cordy love over there.

That definitely comes from Mark. I'm curious if he's even going to even recognize how badly they are treating the character (for the various reasons they did), and I'm REALLY am curious what his feelings are going to be for the character when we get to "Why do you think I let him out, you bitch?" STAB!

Poor Mark. What they're going to do to Cordy is going to break his heart.

His braaaaaaain will explode.

What they're going to do to Cordy is going to break his heart.

Yeah, I do feel sad every time he mentions how much he loves Cordelia and how brilliant her character arc is because...yeah. I love season four, but I can't deny that it's not kind to her character.

That definitely comes from Mark.

Well, no, there are tons of Cordy stans in the comments. Loving Cordy is like hating Xander; everyone's doing it! It was definitely somewhat of a surprise to me, but I was never really in the fandom, so I didn't know how popular Cordy was.

I've gotten the impression that behavior they dislike in Xander they admire in Cordy (meanness and snideness). I have no studies, analysis, or examples, just my impression.

I was in the fandom, and I didn't know how popular she was. I mean, I got her Mean Girl schtick on Buffy, but when she moved to Angel and got humanised--I'm still with her, but when she got demonised, and bore that pain with the nobility never yet seen in the Greater Los Angeles area, plus she gets to be a ninja...not interested. And I was surprised to see, may years later, how stalwart her stans are.

Poor Mark. What they're going to do to Cordy is going to break his heart.

It's funny because he keeps talking about how great Cordy's character arc is, when Wesley's character arc is about to take a huge left turn and will easily supplant it.

I think they badly fucked up Willow's storyline with magic-addiction instead of will-to-power.

Then they fucked up Cordy's storyline a billion times worse until Fury came in and did a great rescue with "You're Welcome."

But Wes has one of the best character arcs in TV history.

But Wes has one of the best character arcs in TV history.

Comparing the two ends of his presence is amazing.