However, I'm not an academic, so I don't get to define shit.

Sure you do.

You just can't get paid for teaching your definitions.

How are what Buffy did in "Prophecy Girl" and "The Wish" considered suicides?

You see, last night I was So Tired from three and a half days of convention, so that's why I begin with "For the sociologists". But here's part of the explanation:

Buffy's deaths are considered as suicides because Durkheim's definition of suicide is pretty much, "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". So walking to a battle that you know you might die in, no matter the reasons (and thus saving the world due to too much social integration is considered to be "altruistic suicide"), is suicide according to Durkheim.

I thought it'll be fun to use his theory of suicides and his definitions in SF/F, and see what comes up.

What about saving your brother or your son? Is that altruistic enough to count?

Since it's sociology, the look at the motives is a bit different. The face value of the terms is different:

Altruistic suicide is a suicide on which the integration in society is too high. The thing that changed Buffy's mind in 1x12 to stop "quitting" and save the world was the conversation with her mom and Willow - hence, integration with her social world made her to face the master.

Fatalist suicide is a suicide on which there's too much regulation, so that the person feels as if he or she disappears and means nothing as an individual. Buffy's speech to Giles on how she quits is she'll have to kill Dawn because "nothing makes sense anymore" and "I don't know how to live in the world if these are the choices" falls into that category. Unlike altruistic suicide, where the person "manifest" his/her role in society to death, here it's about lack of personality in the role.

Egoistic suicide is a suicide on which there's too little integration. Buffy of The Wish wasn't close to anyone: "I don't play well with others". That attitude and lack of integration with other "players" caused her death by the end of the episode.

Finally, anomic suicide happens when there's too little regulation; when the player feels that he or she can bend the rules and choose their form of existence. Hence, I used Buffy's decision in "Normal Again".

Is closing the Glory...portal (almost went there) any less altruistic than closing the Hellmouth? In either case, if they open, Bad Shit Happens to the world.

"doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". So walking to a battle that you know you might die in, no matter the reasons (and thus saving the world due to too much social integration is considered to be "altruistic suicide"), is suicide according to Durkheim.

Hmm. So that makes all armed forces deaths in war/conflicts "suicide."

I don't buy it.

Hmm. So that makes all armed forces deaths in war/conflicts "suicide."

Perhaps not if you were conscripted.

How would this sit with, say, climbing Everest? IIRC, the mortality rate's about 1 in 10; I'd say it fits the definition of "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". However, it seems to me that the relationship between the activity and the risk of death is different from a wartime situation, or Buffy's sacrifices. (I wouldn't refer to a mountain climbing death as a sacrifice, for instance.)

However, it seems to me that the relationship between the activity and the risk of death is different from a wartime situation, or Buffy's sacrifices. (I wouldn't refer to a mountain climbing death as a sacrifice, for instance.)

I wouldn't refer to a mountain climbing death as a sacrifice, either; obviously I wouldn't call it a suicide.

I would call Buffy's deaths (heh, I love this show, deaths plural) sacrificial but not suicides.

I guess the difference in definition comes from taking something in everyday pop culture and trying to fit it into academic technical terminology.

Like, yes, tomatoes are fruits, but most people think of them as (and call them) vegetables. Because they meet the technical definition of "fruit," but they act like vegetables (otherwise known as, You Are Who You Hang Out With).

Durkheim's definition of suicide is pretty much, "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly".

Which means my morning commute is potential suicide.

I would probably agree. The first genre example of altruistic suicide in its purest form that comes to mind for me is Spock in Wrath of Khan. He knew he was walking into to certain death, and if not for his actions, a whole lot of people would have died.

I suppose Spike's sacrifice in the series finale of Buffy would come closest to this.

The problem though (imo) is that Durkheim's formulation of suicide is based on his thesis that the rate of suicides across societies varied based on levels of social cohesion. So perhaps comparing across scifi universes might provide better examples than one show.

For instance, take BSG. There were a number of anomic suicides (Dee being the most heart-renching) that could be contrasted with, say Spock.