"doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". So walking to a battle that you know you might die in, no matter the reasons (and thus saving the world due to too much social integration is considered to be "altruistic suicide"), is suicide according to Durkheim.

Hmm. So that makes all armed forces deaths in war/conflicts "suicide."

I don't buy it.

Hmm. So that makes all armed forces deaths in war/conflicts "suicide."

Perhaps not if you were conscripted.

How would this sit with, say, climbing Everest? IIRC, the mortality rate's about 1 in 10; I'd say it fits the definition of "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". However, it seems to me that the relationship between the activity and the risk of death is different from a wartime situation, or Buffy's sacrifices. (I wouldn't refer to a mountain climbing death as a sacrifice, for instance.)

However, it seems to me that the relationship between the activity and the risk of death is different from a wartime situation, or Buffy's sacrifices. (I wouldn't refer to a mountain climbing death as a sacrifice, for instance.)

I wouldn't refer to a mountain climbing death as a sacrifice, either; obviously I wouldn't call it a suicide.

I would call Buffy's deaths (heh, I love this show, deaths plural) sacrificial but not suicides.

I guess the difference in definition comes from taking something in everyday pop culture and trying to fit it into academic technical terminology.

Like, yes, tomatoes are fruits, but most people think of them as (and call them) vegetables. Because they meet the technical definition of "fruit," but they act like vegetables (otherwise known as, You Are Who You Hang Out With).

Durkheim's definition of suicide is pretty much, "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly".

Which means my morning commute is potential suicide.

I would probably agree. The first genre example of altruistic suicide in its purest form that comes to mind for me is Spock in Wrath of Khan. He knew he was walking into to certain death, and if not for his actions, a whole lot of people would have died.

I suppose Spike's sacrifice in the series finale of Buffy would come closest to this.

The problem though (imo) is that Durkheim's formulation of suicide is based on his thesis that the rate of suicides across societies varied based on levels of social cohesion. So perhaps comparing across scifi universes might provide better examples than one show.

For instance, take BSG. There were a number of anomic suicides (Dee being the most heart-renching) that could be contrasted with, say Spock.

I ride my bike in the city to get to work. I know it could lead to my death. If I get hit by a car, is that suicide?

I expect to buy a car soon. Driving cars can lead to my death. If I die in an automobile accident, is that suicide?

Where's the line? Is it at the "I have a 1% or higher chance of dying" mark? 10%? 50%? According to my cursory google search, there are more than 90,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan right now, and 1,140 U.S. troop deaths in that conflict so far. If we assume that about 25,000 troops have been to Afghanistan and aren't there any more (which seems fairly reasonable, maybe even an underestimate) than we have a < 1% death rate. So a soldier could reasonably sign up to go to Afghanistan with a < 1% expectation of death (and less than 4% expectation of injury). Not great odds, but better than the aforementioned mountain climbing.

I'm giggling now at the idea of people trying to enlist in the armed forces and being turned down for being "suicidal," given that they're choosing to enter into a situation that could lead to their death.

"Sorry, son, we have to turn you down for your mental illness."

"Whaaaat?"

"You know you could be killed in combat, right?"

"Well, yes, but it's worth it to me."

"Sorry, son, that's a suicidal mindset, and we can't have that in the troops."

"But..."

"Sorry, son. Try the Coast Guard."

I think for armed services it is "suicide missions", not the act of serving.

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had to fly them. If he flew them, he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to, he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.

"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.

*Hearts* Ginger.