I think that some (though by no means all) Muslims count any death in battle for certain causes as martyrdom for just that reason. And that is not just right wing fundamentalists. I'm not sure what the criteria is, but it is fairly broad.

In Durkheim the altruistic suicide doesn't exactly want to die; it's about sacrificing your life for the greater good (like a soldier).

I still wouldn't call that a suicide, then. Though if the academic point is about the gradations of "suicide" as defined by Durkheim, then so be it. But I disagree with Durkheim that being willing to die for the greater good is suicide.

I'm not even sure I'd call Buffy's swan dive in "The Gift" a suicide, although I might, given her state of mind during the latter part of the season.

I think that some (though by no means all) Muslims count any death in battle for certain causes as martyrdom for just that reason. And that is not just right wing fundamentalists. I'm not sure what the criteria is, but it is fairly broad.

Yes, but martyrdom /=suicide. (Though I'm not sure you were saying it does.)

I might count the death in The Gift a suicide, since it was an act so directly and knowingly resulting in her death, but not the rest.

However, I'm not an academic, so I don't get to define shit.

However, I'm not an academic, so I don't get to define shit.

Sure you do.

You just can't get paid for teaching your definitions.

How are what Buffy did in "Prophecy Girl" and "The Wish" considered suicides?

You see, last night I was So Tired from three and a half days of convention, so that's why I begin with "For the sociologists". But here's part of the explanation:

Buffy's deaths are considered as suicides because Durkheim's definition of suicide is pretty much, "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". So walking to a battle that you know you might die in, no matter the reasons (and thus saving the world due to too much social integration is considered to be "altruistic suicide"), is suicide according to Durkheim.

I thought it'll be fun to use his theory of suicides and his definitions in SF/F, and see what comes up.

What about saving your brother or your son? Is that altruistic enough to count?

Since it's sociology, the look at the motives is a bit different. The face value of the terms is different:

Altruistic suicide is a suicide on which the integration in society is too high. The thing that changed Buffy's mind in 1x12 to stop "quitting" and save the world was the conversation with her mom and Willow - hence, integration with her social world made her to face the master.

Fatalist suicide is a suicide on which there's too much regulation, so that the person feels as if he or she disappears and means nothing as an individual. Buffy's speech to Giles on how she quits is she'll have to kill Dawn because "nothing makes sense anymore" and "I don't know how to live in the world if these are the choices" falls into that category. Unlike altruistic suicide, where the person "manifest" his/her role in society to death, here it's about lack of personality in the role.

Egoistic suicide is a suicide on which there's too little integration. Buffy of The Wish wasn't close to anyone: "I don't play well with others". That attitude and lack of integration with other "players" caused her death by the end of the episode.

Finally, anomic suicide happens when there's too little regulation; when the player feels that he or she can bend the rules and choose their form of existence. Hence, I used Buffy's decision in "Normal Again".

Is closing the Glory...portal (almost went there) any less altruistic than closing the Hellmouth? In either case, if they open, Bad Shit Happens to the world.

"doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". So walking to a battle that you know you might die in, no matter the reasons (and thus saving the world due to too much social integration is considered to be "altruistic suicide"), is suicide according to Durkheim.

Hmm. So that makes all armed forces deaths in war/conflicts "suicide."

I don't buy it.

Hmm. So that makes all armed forces deaths in war/conflicts "suicide."

Perhaps not if you were conscripted.

How would this sit with, say, climbing Everest? IIRC, the mortality rate's about 1 in 10; I'd say it fits the definition of "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". However, it seems to me that the relationship between the activity and the risk of death is different from a wartime situation, or Buffy's sacrifices. (I wouldn't refer to a mountain climbing death as a sacrifice, for instance.)