At least in "Prophesy Girl" she knew for certain she would die. Sort of a twist on death by cop maybe?

How are what Buffy did in "Prophecy Girl" and "The Wish" considered suicides?

I wondered the same thing. I wouldn't define "going into battle knowing that you *might* die" as suicide. For one, isn't a key element of suicide *desiring* to die? In "Prophecy Girl," Buffy says flat out that she doesn't want to die.

Otherwise we'd have to call all war-related military deaths suicides, and that doesn't sound right to me.

t edit

At least in "Prophesy Girl" she knew for certain she would die. Sort of a twist on death by cop maybe?

There's that, but she still said she didn't want to die. For me, that makes it not suicide.

In Durkheim the altruistic suicide doesn't exactly want to die; it's about sacrificing your life for the greater good (like a soldier).

Are all soldiers' deaths in battle altruistic suicides?

I think that some (though by no means all) Muslims count any death in battle for certain causes as martyrdom for just that reason. And that is not just right wing fundamentalists. I'm not sure what the criteria is, but it is fairly broad.

In Durkheim the altruistic suicide doesn't exactly want to die; it's about sacrificing your life for the greater good (like a soldier).

I still wouldn't call that a suicide, then. Though if the academic point is about the gradations of "suicide" as defined by Durkheim, then so be it. But I disagree with Durkheim that being willing to die for the greater good is suicide.

I'm not even sure I'd call Buffy's swan dive in "The Gift" a suicide, although I might, given her state of mind during the latter part of the season.

I think that some (though by no means all) Muslims count any death in battle for certain causes as martyrdom for just that reason. And that is not just right wing fundamentalists. I'm not sure what the criteria is, but it is fairly broad.

Yes, but martyrdom /=suicide. (Though I'm not sure you were saying it does.)

I might count the death in The Gift a suicide, since it was an act so directly and knowingly resulting in her death, but not the rest.

However, I'm not an academic, so I don't get to define shit.

However, I'm not an academic, so I don't get to define shit.

Sure you do.

You just can't get paid for teaching your definitions.

How are what Buffy did in "Prophecy Girl" and "The Wish" considered suicides?

You see, last night I was So Tired from three and a half days of convention, so that's why I begin with "For the sociologists". But here's part of the explanation:

Buffy's deaths are considered as suicides because Durkheim's definition of suicide is pretty much, "doing something that consciously can lead to one's death, indirectly or directly". So walking to a battle that you know you might die in, no matter the reasons (and thus saving the world due to too much social integration is considered to be "altruistic suicide"), is suicide according to Durkheim.

I thought it'll be fun to use his theory of suicides and his definitions in SF/F, and see what comes up.

What about saving your brother or your son? Is that altruistic enough to count?