If they were all awesome examples of what a woman Can Be all the time, then it would just be dull.

For me, the problem is that I'm not sure any of them are. The first time I watched Buffy my reaction was basically, "So the lead is a gorgeous teenager who's rather shallow and not particularly smart and she wants to be a cheerleader but her darned superpowers are getting in the way. ...Am I supposed to be rooting for the vampires here?" I've never understand how she's a role model when she views her own power as a horrible burden.

And then there's Willow/Fred/River stuff. To me it seems like he's much more interested in showing women as martyrs, and I don't find that particularly inspirational.

To me it seems like he's much more interested in showing women as martyrs, and I don't find that particularly inspirational.

Which is why my favorite female character was Cordelia, especially in the first two seasons of Angel. She was in many ways, incredibly self-aware (I have layers!) Even when she was gifted with the visions from Doyle, her essential Cordyness wasn't altered-- in a way, she was a better Buffy than Buffy was. She accepted her fate in a much more graceful fashion, but still found a way to be totally Cordy about it.

Which made when they turned her into Saint Cordy so unbelievably annoying.

Wrong thread, I know, but it's default Whedon. I think he came closest to getting it right with Zoe.

I think he came closest to getting it right with Zoe.

Unsurprisingly married to the Whedon-stand-in.

I don't know...does River only look bad in a continuum from Willow-River-Fred?

If you just took River's arc, she winds up going from no-agency genius victim to muy-agency Powergirl.

I loved Bloody Fist in the Air Fred, and was a little sorry that went away.

Also, River is this wierd Buffy/Drusilla amalgam to me, while Kaylee is the Willow. And Zoe seems unique and different from anything he has done before, and frankly from anything done anywhere.

Zoe is Oz. Only taller. And hotter. With guns.

Raar.

I hated Pylea, but LOVED Bloody Fist in the Air Fred. LOVED. I loved her smarts, her fears, her self-awareness, her crush on Angel, her unconventional thinking, her bravery. And then... I don't think we ever saw that character again after Pylea. We just saw a caricature of some of those traits as played by the same actress. Which was really sad.

Also, what Sophia said about Firefly.

Wow, She really is. Hmmm. I had never thought of that.

Double posting, but..

I feel that Mal is the Buffy of the series, while River is the Buffy of the movie. And perhaps River would have become the Buffy of the series, given enough time....

And now I am thinking of Spike saying "pacey, you blind idoit... can't you see she'll never love you!" because I am mapping tv show characters to tv show characters.

Teppy, could you please whitefont the Season 8 stuff? It's not been in the collections yet.