And, of course, one final poetry slam for old time's sake. That still makes me chuckle, though I'm sure it was as much the company I saw the Angel finale with as anything else.

One imagines ...

William's soul was too weak and used to being submissive to take over fully except for a few early bouts of weepy cross climbing.

I think I disagree. On a number of counts, really. First off, I'm not entirely sure that the soul only equals the conscience, although I'd agree that's the clearest manifestation.

One of two things pretty much have to be true: Angel's early explanations on what happens when a person's vamped are somewhat erroneous, and that a vampire is more of the original person and less demon walking around as that person than he gives credit to, or it's more-or-less exactly what he says. Which makes the case of Spike ... interesting.

Because Spike with or without a soul is pretty much the same guy. And indeed, as far back as Season Two, The Judge says that he has "the stink of humanity" on him.

Frankly, I think William was a stronger person than anyone, himself included, gave him credit for. Sure, he was a bit of a ponce, and a bloody awful poet, but he loved deeply and unconditionally, and that affection burned into him, even when he became a vampire. I think, free from doubts and insecurities, -- and, of course, conscience -- William's personality was remarkably strong, enough to make him largely anomalous among vampires, and strong enough that, when he gets his soul back, he doesn't suffer the drastic personality shift Angel does.

It probably doesn't hurt that Spike seeks out his soul on his own, as opposed to having it forced back into him. That probably makes the transition a little bit easier. But yeah, I fully believe (and we've seen enough evidence) that Spike and Angel both have a human soul and a demon in their heads, but William's personality was always stronger than Liam's, and held a lot more sway over the vampire persona than Liam ever did.

I t heart victor.

Somewhere I have long copious notes on a method of differentiating the various types of vampires in BVS. Victor has it in a nutshell.

Some of the beast-like vamps are basically low in both human and vamp soul. Neither is dominant, so their behavior falls to instinct.

Circumstances in life also helped make Liam and William (and apparently, Angel and Spike) what they were. Liam was a child of privilege, William wasn't. As much as Liam fought with his father, he no doubt suffered fewer consequences from drinking and wenching (at least until Darla showed up) than William would have. Not to mention the different societal norms of the mid 18th century landed gentry and the late 19th century urban middle class.

A thought just popped into my mind. Liam correlates more closely with Spike than with souled Angel -- rowdy hellraisers both. And William correlates more closely with souled Angel than with Spike -- sensitive and not quite fitting into the world.

I'm loving all the spicey brains on display. That it's about our girl (and our hairloaf) so long after the fact just makes it all that much better.

Andi and I just bought the entire Buffy and Angel oeuvre from Best Buy.

Unfortunately the "in stock" message for all 12 seasons was incorrect for the store. Good thing I pass by 3 Best Buy stores and the corporate offices on my way to and from work...

Even then, I will end up stopping at two and season 4 of Buffy is coming by mail, for free.

I am quoting myself from a conversation at TWoP, because 1) I am lazy and 2) it kinda sums up why I think Angel's very different with a soul, and Spike isn't so much:

The last scene in "Damage" said a lot about Angel. That "I was in it for the evil" line, bad as it was, made an important point. It wasn't that he liked brawling and being strong and the other demonic perks; he enjoyed being a complete sadist, and everything else was nice because it helped him be a better sadist. And with a soul, he's still that person.

[...]He's not trying to make up for what he did; he's trying to make up for who he is. The soul makes him wish he was different, basically, and gives him a motive to act like a different person. That's why he believes he's still going to hell, that's why he hung out in the gutters, that's why he's Mr. Brooding, that's why he asked Buffy if he was a righteous man in "Amends." He's not, at least by his own lights. He's still someone who'd enjoy doing awful things, and even if he doesn't do them anymore, he still believes he's damned because he knows how much he liked it. He's not so much haunted by his crimes as haunted by the fact that he enjoyed committing them.

And then on Spike:

When he was evil, he liked fighting and drinking and running around carelessly. With a soul, he can still do those things, he just fights demons instead. He was a thrill-seaker, not a sadist, which is why he liked fighting Slayers. So I could see how it'd be easier for him to brush it off by saying, "Yeah, I didn't have a soul then, so I looked for the most exciting people to fight." His identity wasn't "I'm a guy who does evil things," it was "I'm a guy who likes to fight and hunt and kill and drink and screw around." He can still be a big selfish ball of id now (I'm not saying he's a good guy, but he's a very different flavor of bad from Angel), he just has to express it a little differently, so having a soul wouldn't cause the same kind of identity crisis.

Frankly, I think William was a stronger person than anyone, himself included, gave him credit for. Sure, he was a bit of a ponce, and a bloody awful poet, but he loved deeply and unconditionally, and that affection burned into him, even when he became a vampire. I think, free from doubts and insecurities, -- and, of course, conscience -- William's personality was remarkably strong, enough to make him largely anomalous among vampires, and strong enough that, when he gets his soul back, he doesn't suffer the drastic personality shift Angel does.

I can agree that William had pronounced character traits (feeling passionately about things), but I don't see the sort of determination and agency that strikes me as characterizing a "strong" person. He appeared to be almost entirely under his mother's thumb, and in possession of a desperate need of approval from Cecily and his peers that transferred to Drusilla once he met her. After an initial transition period his vampiric personality didn't seem to bear much resemblance to his previous human one aside from having a romantic side.

Which makes me think, the respective sires may have had more to do with the development of Spike and Angel's vampiric personas than I'd previously considered. Darla was attracted to Liam for his devil-may-care attitude and joie de vivre, and those traits played a large role in his postmortem behavior with an added heaping of evil. Drusilla seemed drawn to William by his romantic nature, which—at least as expressed toward her—continued to be part of his makeup even though it was very unusual among vampires.

Ooh, Strega. I love that. And that's why I love Angel more than Spike.

Matt also makes a good point about sires.

There's an interview with James Marsters on EW.com. (spoilery for some JM casting news) He says some interesting things about Joss and Spike. [link]

[But] I don't think the character of Spike really sparked Joss' imagination. I think that he was designed to be a throwaway character that got popular with the fans. Personally, he never really got into him. Every character on the show was a version of Joss, but Joss didn't see Spike that way. Spike was the other guy. He was the guy who might mess up the show, actually, because vampires are supposed to be ugly and hated.