Also, I'm not sure how else we could have gotten Joss as Numfar w/out Pylea.

I'm just p.o.ed that they never followed up on any of it, especially the Wolf, Ram and Hart books.

Yeah, Frank, I remember being blown away by that when I first saw that, all, "Holy crap. Did they think of that when they came up with the name and just waited for the right time to use it? Wow."

I don't particularly think they needed to follow up on it, per se; I just saw it as an indicator that Wolfram and Hart, as an entity and metaphor, was pandimensional.

I thought the Wolf, Ram, and Hart revelation was going to turn into a larger issue about the nature of that particular evil, which is what I think Frank is saying.

loved that season 'til we ended up in Pylea (which just cheapened it for me, somehow).

It was worth it to me for Fred and her bag of blood

Fred has never been more glorious than that moment, but it shouldn't have been in that season 2. Thematically inconsistent. Also, as a whole, pretty hokey. I'd grimace at giving up the bag of blood, but happily toss Numfar to the wolves to get a seamless S2.

I'd grimace at giving up the bag of blood, but happily toss Numfar to the wolves to get a seamless S2.

Aw. No love for the rams and harts? Poor rams and harts.

No love for the rams and harts? Poor rams and harts.

Not enough payoff. The rest of S2 was nice and twisty and connected and dark. Even with the darker tones and implications, Pylea was badly timed slapstick in comparison.

I thought the Wolf, Ram, and Hart revelation was going to turn into a larger issue about the nature of that particular evil, which is what I think Frank is saying.

Yeah, it would have been nice if they'd explored that more. As it stands, it end up being the first suggestion that Wolfram and Hart was actually named after three distinct entities (which is later referenced by Illyria in season 5.) and that they may in fact be "The Senior Partners" (or possibly even The Senior Senior Partners) but unfortunately they never really did anything with it.

that wonderful moment when Angel throws open his arms and delights in the sunshine. No magic rings, no hoodoo of any sort, not a dream, just out in the open air leaning against a convertible with the sun on his face.

I loved this. I loved Numfar. I just didn't think any of it belonged, and despite my love of some moments (Lorne's heart being in his ass, among them) they weren't worth it, for me.

Throughout the second season of Angel, until Pylea, I really thought I was going to be watching a show that would (for me) eclipse BtVS (I know A:ts does eclipse BtVS for a lot of fans, but not for me). Then there was all this camp. I'm not opposed to camp, but Joss always seemed to object to its use in describing BtVS, and it didn't fit with how they'd been building the series as more adult and darker than BtVS.

ita nails how I feel when she says it shouldn't have been in that season 2.

which is later referenced by Illyria in season 5

Oh right. There was a LITTLE follow-up then.

More of a shout out, really.

Now that I think about it, Angel generally didn't handle it well when they started getting alterna-dimensional: "She", Pylea, Jasmine's original plane of existence (although "Talky meat" was funny) were all pretty weak in a variety of ways ("She" especially so). Just a bit too sci-fi/fantasy or the wrong kind of sci-fi/fantasy.

This conversation is amusing me greatly because my new flatmate was telling me earlier that hes seen a few eps of Angel, but was never a fan. However, the Pylea eps have just been rerunning here, and he thinks they're fabulous. Different strokes, I guess.