that wonderful moment when Angel throws open his arms and delights in the sunshine. No magic rings, no hoodoo of any sort, not a dream, just out in the open air leaning against a convertible with the sun on his face.

I loved this. I loved Numfar. I just didn't think any of it belonged, and despite my love of some moments (Lorne's heart being in his ass, among them) they weren't worth it, for me.

Throughout the second season of Angel, until Pylea, I really thought I was going to be watching a show that would (for me) eclipse BtVS (I know A:ts does eclipse BtVS for a lot of fans, but not for me). Then there was all this camp. I'm not opposed to camp, but Joss always seemed to object to its use in describing BtVS, and it didn't fit with how they'd been building the series as more adult and darker than BtVS.

ita nails how I feel when she says it shouldn't have been in that season 2.

which is later referenced by Illyria in season 5

Oh right. There was a LITTLE follow-up then.

More of a shout out, really.

Now that I think about it, Angel generally didn't handle it well when they started getting alterna-dimensional: "She", Pylea, Jasmine's original plane of existence (although "Talky meat" was funny) were all pretty weak in a variety of ways ("She" especially so). Just a bit too sci-fi/fantasy or the wrong kind of sci-fi/fantasy.

This conversation is amusing me greatly because my new flatmate was telling me earlier that hes seen a few eps of Angel, but was never a fan. However, the Pylea eps have just been rerunning here, and he thinks they're fabulous. Different strokes, I guess.

Jasmine's original plane of existence

I really loved that, though. The zoom-out "Oh, hell" cliffhanger is one of my favorite moments. But I have mad love for S4 and all its OMGWTFCLIFFHANGER goodness.

I liked the Pylea episodes, but they would've been better startiing out a season than ending one, especially one that had been so dark and twisted. Campy is fun, but it's jarring when it follows something that had been very not campy.

Bag-of-blood Fred and Lorne were the only good things that came out of Pylea. Well, and Numfar. Am I the only one who hated Groo?

I don't remember how I felt then, but I'm inclined to hate Groo right now, and my opinion on Fred is like the wind (generally, a cold wind). Early on though, I thought, "Don't you have an elsewhere to be," whenever she was on screen.

Jars, I think that's something I've always enjoyed about M.E. shows--the varying reaction from fans. It's even hard to pigeonhole fans you know well. I mean, I knew Plei was likely to like such-and-such to do with Wes, or Faith torturing someone, and that Cashmere was going to be happy, when Spike was first shirtless in BtVS, but in general, the shows managed to touch so many of us in different ways.

the Pylea eps have just been rerunning here, and he thinks they're fabulous

Yeah, I'm thinking he's not destined to be an Angel fan.

If you want camp, do camp. They should have gone for camp from the outset of the series. And the rest of S2 was really pretty good. Adult, and dark, and I mean, dang, Angel trying to throw it all away. And then Pylea, which was a huge WTF for me.

I liked Pylea, but then I'm generally fond of that kind of tonal whiplash, even if the execution was far from perfect. (Just don't ask me to explain why Pylea worked fine for me but TGIQ made me want to punch my tv.)

I didn't much care for the Pylea episodes, but liked the aforementioned bag o' blood and Numfar asides.

TGIQ? Please to help out a slow brother.

(Just don't ask me to explain why Pylea worked fine for me but TGIQ made me want to punch my tv.)

The Pylea eps didn't feature a mop with a Cordy wig on it instead of Charisma Carpenter?

I recall liking "Through the Looking Glass," although the other 3 episodes in the Pylea arc were my least favorite until the baby eps of Season 3 showed me I hadn't known the meaning of the words "decline in quality."