Giles also realized he was wrong by seeing what it was doing to Buffy, and came clean with Buffy.

Pfft. Giles knew he was betraying her when he did it. He just wasn't strong enough to defy the Council until he saw the damage.

He just wasn't strong enough to defy the Council until he saw the damage.

I agree with this. I still love my Giles even with his flaws.

I still love my Giles even with his flaws.

Yeah, and that's why I muttered my complaint in small font. I do like all the characters flawed, and I didn't think I really wanted to see another round of this discussion. Turns out I was wrong because it has been interesting. Though at the core I think people generally make these judgments from the gut, out of affinity, rather than reasoned moral assessment.

Much like the characters performing the judged actions, i'd say.

Huh. I never even thought of Giles's actions in "Helpless" as a betrayal. I know that Buffy saw it that way, but it never occurred to me to consider it a betrayal myself. Was it a betrayal when all the other Watchers throughout history did it to their Slayers, or was it only a betrayal with Buffy and Giles because of the kind of relationship they had (i.e., that he was really a father figure to her)?

I think "remove the special powers that an eighteen-year-old expects to have and trap her with a vampire" is always gonna be a betrayal, yeah. It's Just Not Right.

"remove the special powers that an eighteen-year-old expects to have and trap her with a vampire" is always gonna be a betrayal,

What makes it a betrayal and not a test, as you've described it?

I bet Kendra didn't/wouldn't feel betrayed.

ita, yeah, that's what I was getting at (thanks!). Buffy considered it a betrayal because she looked up to him as a companion and father figure, not just as a guide and trainer. But I never thought of it that way. It's another part of her training, and it forced her to come up with a way to defeat a vampire that didn't involve beating him up and staking him; that's got to be a valuable lesson learned.

I do think, in the end, that Giles felt he had betrayed her, but again, I think that's got much more to do with his fatherly feelings towards her. I don't think the test is inherently a betrayal, and I don't think he saw it that way initially.

I actually never saw that moment in Becoming as inspired primarily by spite (and if I did, I would have to violently dislike Xander, so I'm glad I don't). I think Xander didn't like Angel, and understandably liked Angelus even less, and thought Buffy ought to kill Angelus promptly without dilly-dallying around wondering if Willow would be able to resoul him. There was an extremely short timeframe to work within regarding not ending the world, and I think Xander was right not to risk Buffy getting sentimental.

I'm going to agree with Katie here. I've always been in the minority in my opinion of that scene. I see the exchange as Xander seeing that Buffy has set herself for the task, and at the last moment has the maturity to not tell her there is some hope for Angel's soul to be restored. Sure, it does fit in with his dislike of Angel/Angelus, but it has always felt at least somewhat of an inner struggle was going on inside him. If he didn't want to tell her, why bother saying anything? Why not just have Xander say "Kick his ass" for his ownself?

Telling Buffy at that moment may have slowed her down, made her cautious. Once the portal was opened, she had no choice. Sure his motives may not have been pure, but I think he was being Zeppo!Xander.

I remember being briefly horrified by the way Giles behaved in "Helpless," but the episode hit my too-goofy meter. "On the off chance that a Slayer survives this long, let's give her a test that will probably kill her! Brilliant!" So I just kind of ignore it. Like Gunn selling his soul for a truck, y'know? Their behavior makes no sense, but neither does the situation, so I can't really incorporate it into how I view the characters.

Whereas Xander lying to Buffy seemed totally in-character. Whether it was the right or wrong thing to do was never a big concern for me. I believed he'd do that.