historical cross-post!

I've always heard that "But it still moves" was an urban legend.

I still think Giles' betrayal in "Helpless" is worse than any other Scooby betrayal, but nobody ever holds him to task for that. Hmph. His betrayal is conscious, deliberate and without outside magical influence.

but not without a different kind of influence

I sort of feel the same when when Xander punches the wall

Thought of mentioning this earlier. My best friend is a "take aggression out on inanimate objects" sort of person, and it's a constant tendency. We never really saw that reaction from Xander before this. (Though one could argue, as I just did with myself, that he may consciously try to quell those tendencies, being from an abusive household.)

We never really saw that reaction from Xander before this.

True, but I've also seen people do that for the first (and so far only) time under stress. I don't think it's either out of character or unrealistic.

I'm inclined to take the Giles betrayal as the worse of the two, given that Xander at least had fear that Buffy would hold back, die, and thereby condemn everyone he knew and loved to hell (even if jealousy/spite may have been his stronger motive in the moment). Giles had worry that he'd fail his traditional appointed task and disappoint his higher-ups.

Giles had worry that he'd fail his traditional appointed task and disappoint his higher-ups.

Do you not think he thought it was right, until he examined what it meant?

even if jealousy/spite may have been his stronger motive in the moment

That's really all it was for me. I think the other reason (condemning everyone he knew to hell) was more like a convenient rationalization, later on.

The telling difference for me was that Xander never seemed to consider what Buffy was going through, when it came to having to kill the man she'd loved (not to mention facing up to the things he'd done). Giles, on the other hand, seemed concerned about her from the get-go, and hesitant to do what he'd been told was his duty because it was going to put her at risk, as well as their relationship.

Do you not think he thought it was right, until he examined what it meant?

I think he had serious misgivings about it, but let hidebound training keep him on track until the test had gone horribly wrong.

I actually never saw that moment in Becoming as inspired primarily by spite (and if I did, I would have to violently dislike Xander, so I'm glad I don't). I think Xander didn't like Angel, and understandably liked Angelus even less, and thought Buffy ought to kill Angelus promptly without dilly-dallying around wondering if Willow would be able to resoul him. There was an extremely short timeframe to work within regarding not ending the world, and I think Xander was right not to risk Buffy getting sentimental.

Now, if Buffy had just finally screwed up her courage to go do it without the external constraints of world-ending, and Xander had blown off delivering Willow's message just because he believed Angelus should die, that'd be different. But that wasn't the case.

Of course, I had no patience for The Gift either, so I'm kind of heartless that way.