Is there a show (with more than two seasons) that really lived up to the moral dilemmas presented?
I don't think it's all that unusual to present dilemmas and show the consequences. Particularly with cop shows. They're not equivalent, really, because few of them are decisions that could lead to humanity being wiped out by demons. The thing is, if you don't want to deal with the consequences, you don't have to present those dilemmas. But if you want to do the aforementioned meloramatic/operatic scenes where people argue about what to do, you have to pay that off.
I'm trying to come up with moments when the Scoobies said "Damn the world" and it worked out anyway and I'm drawing a blank. Buffy said it in Season 5 in regards to Dawn, but she still had to sacrifice herself in order to save her.
The only other moment I can think of is when the Mayor captured Willow and they agreed to exchange the box of Gavrock, or whatever it was called for her, but that wasn't a "world in immediate peril" situation. Yes, the box was part of the mayor's scheme but the world wasn't going to end that night if he got it back. They still had time to find another way to stop him.
It wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten things like this, though.
The one that springs immediately to mind is Willow's "Sorry about the world and all, but I'm working on a spell to save just Tara" comment, and Buffy telling her "Yeah, keep on that -- that's exactly what you should be doing."
The one that springs immediately to mind is Willow's "Sorry about the world and all, but I'm working on a spell to save just Tara" comment, and Buffy telling her "Yeah, keep on that -- that's exactly what you should be doing."
Yeah, but that spell was one of the factors in defeating Glory. Or is that your point of having-it-both-ways?
Yeah, but that spell was one of the factors in defeating Glory.
As a side-effect. Willow's choice was to save Tara at the expense of the world.
So yes, that's having it both ways. The character was allowed to make a potentially world-ending decision, and by the grace of Joss her decision helped everyone.
she still had to sacrifice herself in order to save her.
Through the handy asspull, yes. That's what I'm objecting to. "My sister or the world? How can I make that decision? The angst! The agony! ...Oh wait, I found a third option under the sofa cushions, which allows me to avoid the whole thing. Phew!"
Yes, the box was part of the mayor's scheme but the world wasn't going to end that night if he got it back.
That's not the argument that's presented, though. It goes like this:
Wesley: This box must be destroyed.
Xander: I need a volunteer to hit Wesley.
Wesley: Giles, you know I'm right about this.
Buffy: Wes, you want to duck and cover at this point?
Wesley: Damn it, you listen to me! This box is the key to the Mayor's Ascension. Thousands of lives depend on our getting rid of it. Now I want to help Willow as much as the rest of you, but we will find another way.
Buffy: There is no other way.
Why not? 'Cause then it wouldn't be dramatic. Then Oz smashes up the box-destroying stuff, which ends the debate. And giving the box to the Mayor does result in the deaths of quite a few people. Just not Willow's. Damn it.
In season 5 Buffy won't sacrifice Dawn, which puts the world in danger, but that works out okay. In season 6 they won't consider killing Willow, which puts the world in danger, but that works out okay.
Through the handy asspull, yes. That's what I'm objecting to. "My sister or the world? How can I make that decision? The angst! The agony! ...Oh wait, I found a third option under the sofa cushions, which allows me to avoid the whole thing. Phew!"
Well, except for the whole death thing. It's not like she hit an instant fix-everything button.
In season 6 they won't consider killing Willow, which puts the world in danger, but that works out okay.
Could anyone have killed her at that point? She took an axe in the spine and got back up and then proceeded to kick the crap out of anyone that got in her way. It's not like they had a chance to research/find a kill Willow device and rejected it.
It's not like she hit an instant fix-everything button.
But it is still an asspull. The whole season's plot was about being stuck with two bad options. Miraculously introducing a third choice, even if it's also sucky, is a cheap way for a writer to avoid dealing with a problem that he created.
Could anyone have killed her at that point?
Andrew: You know, I could summon a demon to kill her.
Xander: And I could smack you so hard your eyeballs switch sockets.
Buffy: No one is getting killed. Sit down. We've got to find some kind of Magicks that'll stop Willow.
Damn but it woulda been sweet if Dawn died anyway.
I honestly can't fault Buffy and Xander for not deciding to kill their best friend from the outset in order to keep her from killing Jonathan and Andrew. She didn't get all "mwah-ha-ha! And for my next trick, I'll burn the world to a cinder!" until she took Giles down, absorbed his borrowed powers, and overreacted to her heightened perception of other people's misery.
Had it been Angel in that situation, he just might have been ruthless enough to lop Willow's head off before she could do anything about it. But I don't think the other characters could make that sort of judgement call early enough for it to have done them any good.
