On network TV, probably not too many.
On cable, there's Farscape, The Shield, Sopranos.
Sweetie, we're crooks. If everything were right, we'd be in jail.
Wash ,'Serenity'
Buffy and Angel 1: BUFFYNANGLE4EVA!!!!!1!
Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.
Jessica - Nov 11, 2005 6:28:55 am PST #2408 of 10459
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset
Strega - Nov 11, 2005 6:37:52 am PST #2409 of 10459
I much prefer the characters having to lie in the beds they have made. I do think there was some of that, though most of the examples I can think of are Wesley-centric
Agreed. That scene in S4 when Willow & Wesley compare notes sums up so much about the differences between the shows. And why I preferred Angel.
Strega - Nov 11, 2005 7:42:39 am PST #2410 of 10459
Is there a show (with more than two seasons) that really lived up to the moral dilemmas presented?
I don't think it's all that unusual to present dilemmas and show the consequences. Particularly with cop shows. They're not equivalent, really, because few of them are decisions that could lead to humanity being wiped out by demons. The thing is, if you don't want to deal with the consequences, you don't have to present those dilemmas. But if you want to do the aforementioned meloramatic/operatic scenes where people argue about what to do, you have to pay that off.
Kalshane - Nov 11, 2005 8:03:45 am PST #2411 of 10459
GS: If you had to choose between kicking evil in the head or the behind, which would you choose, and why?
Minsc: I'm not sure I understand the question. I have two feet, do I not? You do not take a small plate when the feast of evil welcomes seconds.
I'm trying to come up with moments when the Scoobies said "Damn the world" and it worked out anyway and I'm drawing a blank. Buffy said it in Season 5 in regards to Dawn, but she still had to sacrifice herself in order to save her.
The only other moment I can think of is when the Mayor captured Willow and they agreed to exchange the box of Gavrock, or whatever it was called for her, but that wasn't a "world in immediate peril" situation. Yes, the box was part of the mayor's scheme but the world wasn't going to end that night if he got it back. They still had time to find another way to stop him.
It wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten things like this, though.
Jessica - Nov 11, 2005 8:11:38 am PST #2412 of 10459
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset
The one that springs immediately to mind is Willow's "Sorry about the world and all, but I'm working on a spell to save just Tara" comment, and Buffy telling her "Yeah, keep on that -- that's exactly what you should be doing."
DavidS - Nov 11, 2005 8:14:32 am PST #2413 of 10459
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."
The one that springs immediately to mind is Willow's "Sorry about the world and all, but I'm working on a spell to save just Tara" comment, and Buffy telling her "Yeah, keep on that -- that's exactly what you should be doing."
Yeah, but that spell was one of the factors in defeating Glory. Or is that your point of having-it-both-ways?
Jessica - Nov 11, 2005 8:20:15 am PST #2414 of 10459
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset
Yeah, but that spell was one of the factors in defeating Glory.
As a side-effect. Willow's choice was to save Tara at the expense of the world.
So yes, that's having it both ways. The character was allowed to make a potentially world-ending decision, and by the grace of Joss her decision helped everyone.
Strega - Nov 11, 2005 8:33:45 am PST #2415 of 10459
she still had to sacrifice herself in order to save her.Through the handy asspull, yes. That's what I'm objecting to. "My sister or the world? How can I make that decision? The angst! The agony! ...Oh wait, I found a third option under the sofa cushions, which allows me to avoid the whole thing. Phew!"
Yes, the box was part of the mayor's scheme but the world wasn't going to end that night if he got it back.
That's not the argument that's presented, though. It goes like this:
Wesley: This box must be destroyed.
Xander: I need a volunteer to hit Wesley.
Wesley: Giles, you know I'm right about this.
Buffy: Wes, you want to duck and cover at this point?
Wesley: Damn it, you listen to me! This box is the key to the Mayor's Ascension. Thousands of lives depend on our getting rid of it. Now I want to help Willow as much as the rest of you, but we will find another way.
Buffy: There is no other way.
Why not? 'Cause then it wouldn't be dramatic. Then Oz smashes up the box-destroying stuff, which ends the debate. And giving the box to the Mayor does result in the deaths of quite a few people. Just not Willow's. Damn it.
In season 5 Buffy won't sacrifice Dawn, which puts the world in danger, but that works out okay. In season 6 they won't consider killing Willow, which puts the world in danger, but that works out okay.
Kalshane - Nov 11, 2005 10:06:49 am PST #2416 of 10459
GS: If you had to choose between kicking evil in the head or the behind, which would you choose, and why?
Minsc: I'm not sure I understand the question. I have two feet, do I not? You do not take a small plate when the feast of evil welcomes seconds.
Through the handy asspull, yes. That's what I'm objecting to. "My sister or the world? How can I make that decision? The angst! The agony! ...Oh wait, I found a third option under the sofa cushions, which allows me to avoid the whole thing. Phew!"
Well, except for the whole death thing. It's not like she hit an instant fix-everything button.
In season 6 they won't consider killing Willow, which puts the world in danger, but that works out okay.
Could anyone have killed her at that point? She took an axe in the spine and got back up and then proceeded to kick the crap out of anyone that got in her way. It's not like they had a chance to research/find a kill Willow device and rejected it.
Strega - Nov 11, 2005 10:41:42 am PST #2417 of 10459
It's not like she hit an instant fix-everything button.But it is still an asspull. The whole season's plot was about being stuck with two bad options. Miraculously introducing a third choice, even if it's also sucky, is a cheap way for a writer to avoid dealing with a problem that he created.
Could anyone have killed her at that point?Andrew: You know, I could summon a demon to kill her.
Xander: And I could smack you so hard your eyeballs switch sockets.
Buffy: No one is getting killed. Sit down. We've got to find some kind of Magicks that'll stop Willow.