It's funny, I only noticed Buffy's speedy forgiveness when the show pointed it out, but Fred's grudge carrying and vengeance seeking really stood out for me.

I'm gonna have to think about that some more.

I think Buffy would consider what Faith did to her season 3 to be much worse than what Spike did in SR.

I was never convinced of that.

You personally weren't convinced that it was worse, or you weren't convinced Buffy thought so? I think Buffy had a lot more ire toward (and maybe fear of) Faith, than of Spike, overall, particularly if we add in the Fuffy/Baith storyline, which was a rape of sorts that Buffy didn't even get the chance to fend off.

But if that holds true then the Spike that came back season 7 wasn't the same guy as the one who left.

Except...he was. If it hadn't been for the constant repetition of "he's different, he has a soul now," we wouldn't have noticed. His behavior/attitudes were exactly the same as the unsouled version.

Concept fine, execution bad.

I was never convinced of that.

Yeah, while Faith did try to kill Buffy, Buffy didn't have the same type of relationship as with Spike; she never really trusted Faith. People try to kill her all the time-- sexual assault, nsm.

If Buffy had accepted unsouled Spike back, I would have screamed bloody murder. But it was a different guy. The memory of how close they all allowed unsouled Spike to get to them is going to be full of regrets/anger/annoyance/hatred for all of them, I should think, but that's part of the learning curve.

Except...he was

Well, Angel developed a new "nice guy" persona to go with his new soul. He could still act JUST like Angelus when it suited him, but he constructed a new (and IMO more boring) personality.

I was fine with how it played out. But Robin, how would you have felt if Buffy and Spike's season 7 plot had been a love story, rather than whatever it was that that was. I mean, it basically just turned into insane-in-the-basement, chip-is-causing-trouble-and-I'll-help-him, he's-my-last-ally. But what if their storyline in S7 had been the beginning of a grown up, less destructive romance?

I think Buffy had a lot more ire toward (and maybe fear of) Faith, than of Spike, overall, particularly if we add in the Fuffy/Baith storyline, which was a rape of sorts that Buffy didn't even get the chance to fend off.

At the risk of handing more fodder to the Cindy/Frank conspiracy theorists, this is exactly how I feel about this.

Except...he was. If it hadn't been for the constant repetition of "he's different, he has a soul now," we wouldn't have noticed. His behavior/attitudes were exactly the same as the unsouled version.

I'll be sitting here, nodding at Jess.

Plus, souled Spike was an annoying, sanctimonious, passive-aggressive twerp of an ex when he wasn't being crazy in the basement, and therefore like fingernails on a chalkboard to watch. Dude didn't really own his choices until Damage, for heaven's sake.

In theory I'd find Spike's rape attempt much more disturbing than Angel's murder attempts, because... well, oddly enough, Angel still recognized Buffy as a person. He mocked her, he hated her, he wanted to hurt her and kill her. But he wasn't deluded about who she was. Spike wanted to force Buffy to love him -- emotionally, not just physically. In that moment, he didn't know he was doing anything wrong. He thought he could make her love him, and then it would all be fine. That kind of dismissal of someone as separate from you is more frightening to me.

In reality, I thought it was dopey, but that had more to do with the previous two seasons than that one scene.

...Now that I think about it, that difference between Spike and Angel makes sense. Angel, even without a soul, did have a certain kind of empathy. He used it to figure out the best way to torture someone, but that still requires seeing the world from someone else's point of view. I don't think Spike had that same kind of insight; he assumed everyone related to the world the way he did.