Zoe ,'Heart Of Gold'
Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.
I still don't understand how the Spike-no-Soul who attempts rape is worsethan Angel-no-soul who tries to freaking KILL Buffy and her family and friends and does kill Jenny Calender and tortures Giiles.
because it's not Angel, it's Angelus.
Spike was more of a betrayal in that it threw in their faces that this was THE SAME GUY ALL ALONG that did this. I think it's much harder to compartmentalise, and much harder to get past.
yes, this.
Buffy never trusted unsouled Angel -- it was made narratively clear (to everyone other than Xander) that the man she'd loved and slept with was good, and they needed to get him back. Spike was more of a betrayal in that it threw in their faces that this was THE SAME GUY ALL ALONG that did this. I think it's much harder to compartmentalise, and much harder to get past.
But if that holds true then the Spike that came back season 7 wasn't the same guy as the one who left. Given that it took Buffy only about a 1/4 of an episode to let Faith back into the fold later that same season, I don't really feel her actions wrt to Spike are all the hard to deal with. I think Buffy would consider what Faith did to her season 3 to be much worse than what Spike did in SR.
the Spike that came back season 7 wasn't the same guy as the one who left
He wasn't the same guy as the one she'd slept with originally either -- that's why it's messier.
I think Buffy would consider what Faith did to her season 3 to be much worse than what Spike did in SR.
I was never convinced of that.
It's funny, I only noticed Buffy's speedy forgiveness when the show pointed it out, but Fred's grudge carrying and vengeance seeking really stood out for me.
I'm gonna have to think about that some more.
I think Buffy would consider what Faith did to her season 3 to be much worse than what Spike did in SR.
I was never convinced of that.
You personally weren't convinced that it was worse, or you weren't convinced Buffy thought so? I think Buffy had a lot more ire toward (and maybe fear of) Faith, than of Spike, overall, particularly if we add in the Fuffy/Baith storyline, which was a rape of sorts that Buffy didn't even get the chance to fend off.
But if that holds true then the Spike that came back season 7 wasn't the same guy as the one who left.
Except...he was. If it hadn't been for the constant repetition of "he's different, he has a soul now," we wouldn't have noticed. His behavior/attitudes were exactly the same as the unsouled version.
Concept fine, execution bad.
I was never convinced of that.
Yeah, while Faith did try to kill Buffy, Buffy didn't have the same type of relationship as with Spike; she never really trusted Faith. People try to kill her all the time-- sexual assault, nsm.
If Buffy had accepted unsouled Spike back, I would have screamed bloody murder. But it was a different guy. The memory of how close they all allowed unsouled Spike to get to them is going to be full of regrets/anger/annoyance/hatred for all of them, I should think, but that's part of the learning curve.
Except...he was
Well, Angel developed a new "nice guy" persona to go with his new soul. He could still act JUST like Angelus when it suited him, but he constructed a new (and IMO more boring) personality.
I was fine with how it played out. But Robin, how would you have felt if Buffy and Spike's season 7 plot had been a love story, rather than whatever it was that that was. I mean, it basically just turned into insane-in-the-basement, chip-is-causing-trouble-and-I'll-help-him, he's-my-last-ally. But what if their storyline in S7 had been the beginning of a grown up, less destructive romance?