I still don't understand how the Spike-no-Soul who attempts rape is worsethan Angel-no-soul who tries to freaking KILL Buffy and her family and friends and does kill Jenny Calender and tortures Giiles. Rape is worse than murder and torture? The only difference was that Spike tried to be "good" when he was unsouled, and ultimately failed miserably. It always seems like everyone gove the Buffy/Angel relationship a pass when this comes up. Didn't she forgive him much more quickly after Angelus' murderous rampage and was desperate to sleep with him again except for the whole turning evil thing?

Well, I've already said that if Spike had attempted murder, it wouldn't have bothered me as much. Torture too. It's the nature of the crime, and its relationship to the meta of the show. I know Spike is capable of great evil, lack of soul, that's been mitigated by chip and his sort of love, but is in no way checked permanently. I thought it was out of character for him to do that, and I think the writers planned poorly.

It always seems like everyone gove the Buffy/Angel relationship a pass

Buffy never trusted unsouled Angel -- it was made narratively clear (to everyone other than Xander) that the man she'd loved and slept with was good, and they needed to get him back. Spike was more of a betrayal in that it threw in their faces that this was THE SAME GUY ALL ALONG that did this. I think it's much harder to compartmentalise, and much harder to get past.

Dear Bosses of Vortex and Cass,

Vortex and Cass were late, because Giles finally came back. Who is Giles, you ask? Well, we could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you...Wait. There have been too many workplace massacres for me to expect you to know I was just taking the piss about the killing part. Okay, let me start again. To splain yada yada sum...

We're talking G I L E S. That's Giles , Rupert, aka Ripper, as played by ASH, who has played other roles, as well.

Surely, both Vortex and Cass have, in making their decisions; prioritizing their tasks; and pursuing their goals, shown the sort of incisive, and innately wise decision making, you expect them to display and put to good use, in your respective places of employ. Obviously, they will be recording this time on their time sheets as "Professional Development". Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,
The Buffistas

I still don't understand how the Spike-no-Soul who attempts rape is worsethan Angel-no-soul who tries to freaking KILL Buffy and her family and friends and does kill Jenny Calender and tortures Giiles.

because it's not Angel, it's Angelus.

Spike was more of a betrayal in that it threw in their faces that this was THE SAME GUY ALL ALONG that did this. I think it's much harder to compartmentalise, and much harder to get past.

yes, this.

Buffy never trusted unsouled Angel -- it was made narratively clear (to everyone other than Xander) that the man she'd loved and slept with was good, and they needed to get him back. Spike was more of a betrayal in that it threw in their faces that this was THE SAME GUY ALL ALONG that did this. I think it's much harder to compartmentalise, and much harder to get past.

But if that holds true then the Spike that came back season 7 wasn't the same guy as the one who left. Given that it took Buffy only about a 1/4 of an episode to let Faith back into the fold later that same season, I don't really feel her actions wrt to Spike are all the hard to deal with. I think Buffy would consider what Faith did to her season 3 to be much worse than what Spike did in SR.

the Spike that came back season 7 wasn't the same guy as the one who left

He wasn't the same guy as the one she'd slept with originally either -- that's why it's messier.

I think Buffy would consider what Faith did to her season 3 to be much worse than what Spike did in SR.

I was never convinced of that.

It's funny, I only noticed Buffy's speedy forgiveness when the show pointed it out, but Fred's grudge carrying and vengeance seeking really stood out for me.

I'm gonna have to think about that some more.

I think Buffy would consider what Faith did to her season 3 to be much worse than what Spike did in SR.

I was never convinced of that.

You personally weren't convinced that it was worse, or you weren't convinced Buffy thought so? I think Buffy had a lot more ire toward (and maybe fear of) Faith, than of Spike, overall, particularly if we add in the Fuffy/Baith storyline, which was a rape of sorts that Buffy didn't even get the chance to fend off.

But if that holds true then the Spike that came back season 7 wasn't the same guy as the one who left.

Except...he was. If it hadn't been for the constant repetition of "he's different, he has a soul now," we wouldn't have noticed. His behavior/attitudes were exactly the same as the unsouled version.

Concept fine, execution bad.

I was never convinced of that.

Yeah, while Faith did try to kill Buffy, Buffy didn't have the same type of relationship as with Spike; she never really trusted Faith. People try to kill her all the time-- sexual assault, nsm.