See, I identify with the ugly bits too. Much more than I ever identified with the ugly bits of Buffy or Xander.

I do understand identifying with the ugly bits of whichever character. I don't understand ignoring them. I don't see that here, in general. This place was like the last sane haven during season 6, particularly after the murder of Tara, and Spike's attempted rape of Buffy.

I identified a lot with Buffy's ugly bits. We share a lot of negative personality traits, which is why I always flinch a little when I see people in fandom talk about how they'd never be able to stand a bitch like Buffy in real life.

And also why I'm confused by the argument that Buffy is, by virtue of those negative traits, a masculine character, thus making Spike the abused and feeble woman.

I have seen Spike put forth as the abuse victim (I think their relationship was mutually abusive), and Buffy as the mean bitch who abused him. I haven't seen the Buffy-is-the-masculine-character theory, nor the Spike-is-woman theory.

I did once read a blog or lj entry (yonks and yonks and yet more yonks ago) about Spike/Buffy being the real queer relationship on BtVS. I thought it made some interesting points, but I have no idea where I read it.

Crap. Left the notebook in the car. Have to finish Connor/Faith post NFA. Thanks for the reminder.

Well then it was worth my pain, wasn't it?

I haven't seen the Buffy-is-the-masculine-character theory, nor the Spike-is-woman theory.

I've seen the former as a part of the "Spike/Buffy is really slash" theory. To which my reaction is always "Say what?".

Joss's commentary on the Angel DVDs says he considers Angel and Spike to be the perfect couple. In another place (can't remember just where now) he refers to Spike as the ingenue.

Damn! I can't believe I chose to not watch Antiques Roadshow FYI today!

LJ, have you seen them categorized as slash, or as queer?

In another place (can't remember just where now) he refers to Spike as the ingenue.

It probably doesn't help that he's taken on Cordelia's role with the group in both shows since Buffy Season 4.

LJ, have you seen them categorized as slash, or as queer?

I thought it was slash, but I could be wrong -- my memory is fuzzy. I know Herself has written about this fairly recently in her LiveJournal.

I remember the term "queer" being used, but it's possible that both were. No cites I can recall, though I probably followed a link from here.