I said I'm sorry. I've made mistakes, but fear was never one of them.

Lilah ,'Conviction (1)'


Buffy and Angel 1: BUFFYNANGLE4EVA!!!!!1!

Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.


Lyra Jane - Aug 07, 2005 1:26:56 pm PDT #1688 of 10458
Up with the sun

I haven't seen the Buffy-is-the-masculine-character theory, nor the Spike-is-woman theory.

I've seen the former as a part of the "Spike/Buffy is really slash" theory. To which my reaction is always "Say what?".


sfmarty - Aug 07, 2005 2:07:09 pm PDT #1689 of 10458
Who? moi??

Joss's commentary on the Angel DVDs says he considers Angel and Spike to be the perfect couple. In another place (can't remember just where now) he refers to Spike as the ingenue.


sumi - Aug 07, 2005 2:09:57 pm PDT #1690 of 10458
Art Crawl!!!

Damn! I can't believe I chose to not watch Antiques Roadshow FYI today!


Topic!Cindy - Aug 07, 2005 2:51:40 pm PDT #1691 of 10458
What is even happening?

LJ, have you seen them categorized as slash, or as queer?


Topic!Cindy - Aug 07, 2005 2:51:43 pm PDT #1692 of 10458
What is even happening?

Matt the Bruins fan - Aug 07, 2005 2:58:13 pm PDT #1693 of 10458
"I remember when they eventually introduced that drug kingpin who murdered people and smuggled drugs inside snakes and I was like 'Finally. A normal person.'” —RahvinDragand

In another place (can't remember just where now) he refers to Spike as the ingenue.

It probably doesn't help that he's taken on Cordelia's role with the group in both shows since Buffy Season 4.


Lyra Jane - Aug 07, 2005 5:35:30 pm PDT #1694 of 10458
Up with the sun

LJ, have you seen them categorized as slash, or as queer?

I thought it was slash, but I could be wrong -- my memory is fuzzy. I know Herself has written about this fairly recently in her LiveJournal.


DebetEsse - Aug 07, 2005 5:39:43 pm PDT #1695 of 10458
Woe to the fucking wicked.

I remember the term "queer" being used, but it's possible that both were. No cites I can recall, though I probably followed a link from here.


Volans - Aug 07, 2005 9:07:01 pm PDT #1696 of 10458
move out and draw fire

And also why I'm confused by the argument that Buffy is, by virtue of those negative traits, a masculine character

I've seen this (and the corollary that Spike, being motivated by emotion, is female). Usually I decide that the proponent of the theory is very young, or very naive, or otherwise wedded to gender stereotypes. In my more expansive moods, I figure they are working along the lines Camille Paglia put forth in Sexual Persona; to wit, men are Apollonian, straight-line thinkers and doers, problem-solvers. The male is the one who is nominally head-of-household, and deals with the external stuff (mammoth-killer, breadwinner, soldier, athlete). Women are Cthonian, involved and identified with bodily fluids, associative thinkers and manipulators. The female is the emotional head-of-household, dealing with the internal stuff, caring for the children, addressing people's emotions.

If you agree with Paglia, then it's easy enough to map Buffy the Slayer onto the male role, and Spike the vampire, erstwhile poet, and babysitter of Dawn onto the female role.

But mostly the fan response doesn't go that way...mostly it's around the level of "Buffy's totally using Spike sexually, that makes him a woman!" Which is just dumb.


Sean K - Aug 07, 2005 9:09:38 pm PDT #1697 of 10458
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

I [heart] Raq.