Also, I backread and covered Cindy's blog after I posted. The whole idea about community is a lot of what changed my viewpoint about thdisliking organized religion vs. disliking people involved in organized religion.

For a while there, in my late teens/early 20's, I made the irritating and hopefully age-related mistake of mixing up a religion with those who practice it, and I was very anti-Christian. Getting older, and hopefully wiser, has steered me away from that -- I try to not mix up those who believe in a particular faith with the irritations and arguments I may have with the ORGANIZATION of religion.

Oh, I feel I'm saying this badly, but suffice it to say that I am doubtful and leery of any organized religion as a WHOLE, but I respect many individuals who are faithful members of those religions as INDIVUDUALS.

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Cindy, thank you. Firstly for calling me friend, and secondly for giving me something to think about.

Oh, the first is my pleasure, and thank you for the second.

I did leave the Church for an extended period of time, primarily my college years and the first year and a half of law school. Call it what you will--youthful backlash against religion, outright rebellion--but I was getting nothing from my faith. Maybe 12 years of Catholic education burned me out. I wasn't satisfied with the church-going experience, which may be due to the fact that I never really joined a parish in college (transience and all that), and the on-campus Catholic ministry left me cold. Solitary prayer was just me going through the motions. I didn't feel anything. No connection with God, no spirituality. Couple that with my increasing difficulty in accepting the teachings of the Church on birth control, homosexuality, and abortion, and it was no wonder I walked away.

Pretty much my path, except I am not and didn't start out Catholic. I continued to believe, but did not know how to practice my faith and live my convictions (many of which involve issues on which I do not believe I am out of step with Biblical teachings--just the popular conception of them).

Ironically, law school brought me back.

Heh. Ironically, Buffy the Vampire Slayer brought me back.

My second year, second semester came around, and I had the good fortune to take Family Law with Father O'Brien. Without going into boring details, that man managed to singlehandedly show me that my secular moral beliefs could coexist with my faith. It was OK to question the Church, while still being a part of it. Slowly, I came back, realizing that my religion was an innate part of who I am. I just lacked the tools to blend it with the rest of me.

What a great way to put it. I had no idea how to articulate that, Maria.

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Skipping ahead to post this:

Would the heathens/pagans/Others care to explicate their stances and/or spirituality?

I love this question. (First, my demographics: Mom is Catholic, Dad was raised Presbyterian and now goes to a Methodist church. I was baptized Episcopalian because it seemed like a compromise to my parents, but it didn't really work for either of them, so we went to a Presbyterian church because my dad felt more strongly about it than my mom did. Lately, I only go to church on Christmas, though we diid go to a Unitarian church pretty regularly for about a year around our wedding, and should probably go back there at some point. End demographic introduction.)

Basically, I think I lack the brainpart for faith. My earliest memory of religion is of being prayed for (in a very nice, let's-help-the-child) way by a first-grade Sunday school teacher, because I couldn't understand how there could be dinosaurs AND Adam and Eve, and I believed in the dinosaurs more.

I went to Sunday school fairly regularly until I was 12 or 13, when my parents also quit going. I was confirmed and everything. But the part that religious people have, where what you hear in church moves from interesting stories and trivia, occasionally with thought-provoking morals, to Higher Truth ... it just never kicked in for me. Still hasn't.

Despite this, I believe there is A God -- some higher animating force behind the universe, something we are all a part of that is a part of all of us. I can sense that. I pray, sometimes, though I'm not sure what I'm praying to. I like the ceremonial trappings of Catholicism, and the deep faith I see in Catholics like JZ. If I could just get over the whole "not believing Jesus was more than a great teacher" thing...

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For a while there, in my late teens/early 20's, I made the irritating and hopefully age-related mistake of mixing up a religion with those who practice it, and I was very anti-Christian. Getting older, and hopefully wiser, has steered me away from that -- I try to not mix up those who believe in a particular faith with the irritations and arguments I may have with the ORGANIZATION of religion.

Even some of the "faithful" have irritations and arguments with the organization of religion.

Oh, I feel I'm saying this badly, but suffice it to say that I am doubtful and leery of any organized religion as a WHOLE, but I respect many individuals who are faithful members of those religions as INDIVUDUALS.

Erin, you put it wonderfully. That's all I would ever ask from anyone.

Cindy, after I typed that I realized I probably should have commented in your LJ instead. Feel free to use that however you wish.

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I couldn't understand how there could be dinosaurs AND Adam and Eve, and I believed in the dinosaurs more.

This makes me smile real big. Yay dinosaurs.

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but they can cover 50% of my March COBRA costs (which means I'm covered, but DH pays his own way

Hey, it's a start. Good luck!

I'm in the Columbia South Carolina airport. And it has free wireless! Whoot! Now if only I'd brought my plug--I only have half a laptop charge left, and an hour until my flight boards!

And I have to say "Mmmm, CAKE MIX!". Now I want brownie batter.

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Oh, yeah, I'm glad that all came out as I intended!

I'm so glad all of you took my weird questions re: Catholic practices in the spirit in which they were intended -- genuine curiosity with just a tinge of nonbeliever snark.

Thanks for being reasonable, nice people who can discuss het-up issues without getting het-up. It's so rare.

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Oh, I feel I'm saying this badly, but suffice it to say that I am doubtful and leery of any organized religion as a WHOLE, but I respect many individuals who are faithful members of those religions as INDIVUDUALS.

Nah, you're not saying it badly. There's strength in numbers--power, and power does corrupt. Any organization (religious, political or otherwise) full of humans has terrific potential for both good and evil, I think. And certainly the Christian church and other religious institutions, and groups of religious people have worked their share of evil.

I try to not mix up those who believe in a particular faith with the irritations and arguments I may have with the ORGANIZATION of religion.

Most religious people who think (and I've found they think at about the same rate as non-religious), also have irritations and arguments with it. I don't know if that helps. I believe that Christianity is true, but I do not think Christians have anything approaching a monopoly on truth, if that makes any sense.

Despite this, I believe there is A God -- some higher animating force behind the universe, something we are all a part of that is a part of all of us. I can sense that. I pray, sometimes, though I'm not sure what I'm praying to. I like the ceremonial trappings of Catholicism, and the deep faith I see in Catholics like JZ. If I could just get over the whole "not believing Jesus was more than a great teacher" thing...

I start the same place you do. I just end convinced of that empty tomb, and the actions of his followers, after its discovery. I am (somewhat unsuccessfully) fighting the urge to gently proselytize (although hopefully in a non-yucky way). Questions aren't that, right? What makes you think he was a great teacher?

eta...

Cindy, after I typed that I realized I probably should have commented in your LJ instead. Feel free to use that however you wish.

That doesn't matter, Maria. I'm just glad to know more of your story.

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What makes you think he was a great teacher?

My religious education stopped in seventh grade, and as such is woefully lacking of the tools I would need for any sort of adult discussion. So it isn't really something I can logically defend, though I probably should be able to if I'm going to say it in a place like this.

That said ... I like not judging. I like being kind to those who are not kind to you. I like clothing the naked and feeding the hungry. I like that he accepted people who were cast out by mainstream society.

All the usual things lefties who don't really know the bible will say, I suspect.

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Cindy, that was utterly gorgeous.

the deep faith I see in Catholics like JZ

Half the time my faith feels skin deep. It's a constant struggle -- a worthwhile one, that strengthens and deepens me, but I'm incessantly plagued by doubts and scruples and a ghastly Lovecraftian horror of the vastness and indifference of the universe. But I think I have the faith gene that Lyra and Jen lack (possibly I have both of theirs as well as my own, which would explain a great deal). I'm physically incapable of un- believing, doubts and fears and all.

ION, heh. I just got a call from the mock clinic people. They desperately need someone this Sunday and I couldn't turn it down -- they want me to be a sullen, irritable, heroin-addicted singer in a rock band with infective endocarditis. I kind of think I have to do it.

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