Firefly 4: Also, we can kill you with our brains
Discussion of the Mutant Enemy series, Firefly, the ensuing movie Serenity, and other projects in that universe. Like the other show threads, anything broadcast in the US is fine; spoilers are verboten and will be deleted if found.
Topic!Cindy, I actually agree about the actors, I just wanted to put it out there they were out of work from it. But, yeah: the people who got shafted here properly are the fans. Let's face it, one cancelled con isn't going to put Jewel significantly out, whereas I suspect some fans have suffered a reasonably big amount of financial hardship from this.
One thing I have noticed, looking online: a lot of BE's customers still don't know what is going on with Booster, and are still talking about refunds via the company. BE need to mail their personal statement thing out to their customers, if they can actually agree about anything.
If it goes bankrupt (which is really a 'when?'), there is a hold placed on company financies (all money going out and in) for 90 days. A professional company is assigned to look at the accounts, and divide out the remaining money (creditors get first pick, will be mortgage providers, loan providers, hotels etc). Anything left (assuming there is anything) will -- presumably, I don't understand this bit fully -- go to customers. I don't know how customers claim that. I presume they will have to file proof with the company handling the financies.
How they decide to dish out the money, I don't know. I'll have to find that out. I'm back home beginning of next week, so that'll be my plan. Might as well find out what the full bankruptacy procedure involves from a fan point of view.
There is also the aspect of Vicki and Denise. I know Denise has threatened to take legal action against Vicki, as she's said that publicly. I know Vicki is saying she and her partner significantly bank rolled the business, so it wouldn't surprise me if she wants a portion of that back during bankruptacy.
I don't know if they could have a legal fight over money at this late stage. If they did, it could delay money being handed out to fans until the case is resolved -- which, being a non-criminal case, would be a long time away. However do Denise and Vicki actually have enough money to sue each other? Who knows.
Maybe I'm evil, but I don't care if they lose their houses. The point of creating an LLC is to avoid the risk of losing personal assets. Then going on to use personal money and/or assets for business purposes, to keep a failing business afloat for whatever reason, is very dumb. Losing personal assets is what happens to people who make stupid financial decisions. Speaking as a person who has made such, and lost such, myself. If they're able to declare bankruptcy and walk away from this debacle with nothing worse than a lost house, they're lucky. And, as pointed out, as long as they can keep making the payments on the loan, they won't lose the house. So it's likely they'll be none the worse, once this all shakes out. It's the fans who will have lost unrecoverable assets.
If it goes bankrupt (which is really a 'when?'), there is a hold placed on company financies (all money going out and in) for 90 days. A professional company is assigned to look at the accounts, and divide out the remaining money (creditors get first pick, will be mortgage providers, loan providers, hotels etc).
I think the business can declare bankruptcy without the people declaring personal bankruptcy, so I'm not so sure the mortgage lenders will come into the equation. I suppose it depends on what sort of loan they got, and the terms of it.
The court will make that decision.
Of course they will, Tamara. I was asking about personal opinions, because it's such a big, layered mess.
I was asking about personal opinions, because it's such a big, layered mess.
Yeah, I get it. That is why I am glad the court will be making the decisions. I certainly don't want Vicki and Denise in charge of it.
And I'm with Zenkitty. I have no sympathy at all for this kind of stupid and will not feel a single bit of sorry for them if they lose their houses.
Actually, that's a good point Cindy, that I am too stupid to realise - of course, if they've secured money personally for the business then it won't go down with the business. At least the people who lost out will know the owners are paying fees on those loans for a long time from their own money.
That said, say they got a $200,000 mortgage, transfered the money to the business bank account, and then transfered the money back out, and then fold the business.... Isn't that going to look a bit odd accounting wise?
Ignorance is bliss for me, I suspect. It's hard to believe the scale of muppetness involved in Boosters operation. Tamara tried to tell me, but I never realised how much of an idiot factor was involved.
Yeah, I get it. That is why I am glad the court will be making the decisions. I certainly don't want Vicki and Denise in charge of it.
Amen, to that. I know you weren't going to attend Flanvention II, anyhow, but have you ever gone to any of their other cons?
Actually, that's a good point Cindy, that I am too stupid to realise - of course, if they've secured money personally for the business then it won't go down with the business. At least the people who lost out will know the owners are paying fees on those loans for a long time from their own money.
Kevin, there is so much confusion, I don't know if it's possible to be stupid about anything they're saying (unless people say, "Yes," to any more BE events--which would be entirely stupid). Nobody knows what they did or didn't do. Denise was referring to 'inventory', when I'm pretty sure she meant 'collateral', which makes me wonder about the whole mortgage thing, anyhow.
I should try and convince those YouTube hipsters to make a video on how to run a business, BE style.
say they got a $200,000 mortgage
A $200K 2nd mortgage on a house in Ashland, OR would have to be on a frakkin' mansion. The average price for a house in Ashland is around $250K.
And this is very high for the state of Oregon. If they live outside the city limits the average price plummets.
If there were ever to be any refunds (I really don't think people will end up seeing any money--some smart attorney is going to tell these women to get over their tiff and declare bankruptcy), how do you think they should be distributed? Fans first? Flan fans first? What about BB and NN ticket holders? People who didn't go to California, once they realized the con wouldn't come off? What do you think?
If this is a corporation, then what will probably happen (I'm not a bankruptcy atty), is that the court will appoint a trustee whose job is to maximize the recovery of assets for the debtors. There will need to be a determination of the assets and liabilities.
In terms of payment, as I recall, the trustee and anyone he/she hires (accountants, attys, etc.) will be paid first. Then secured creditors -- those who have lent money to the business secured by an asset. Then unsecured creditors such as prospective attendees.
I've posted a bit from a bankruptcy lawyer here: [link]
It looks like people are having more luck getting credit card refunds etc if they also report it to the police first. VISA don't do 'owt after 120 days, apparently, but if it's a seen as a police matter I suppose it pushes it more with the card company.
