My girlfriend wants to edit my writing because first off, she's a dyed-in-the-wool editor and second, if there's one person she won't pull punches with, it's me. None of my writer friends have ever let me down easy. It's all a matter of which buddies you go to.

This works when you have friends who value (your) good writing higher than they value your ego. They also have to trust that YOU value good writing higher than your own ego, as well.

In terms of distinguishing between a beta reader and an editor, that is exactly right. And when a beta-reader does equal editor then they are generously putting huge amounts of their time into doings stuff that people get paid for.

But it is not true that the rest does not contribute. You think that the guy who lays out the text does not contribute to the book? In print or in electronic form? You think layout is trivial in e-books?

And what if a book is aimed at 2 million readers? Ah they can hear about it from critics or reviewers. Great, and how do the critics or reviewers hear about it? How does the critic select a book from the 100,000 published. In the end you need a slush pile and some poor souls to spend hours each week reading through that slush pile. Or you need agencies who have slushpiles of their own to choose whom to represent.

You might not like the institutions we have to perform these functions, but tell me the functions are not needed.

I think the problem here is you are not being radical enough. You have to move into "another world is possible" territory here. Start thinking about what you want to replace the system we have with. I don't think you can just snip the parts you don't like away and expect what remains to work.

wrong thread, la la la

Umm I though thread drift was allowed in this one. It is continuing the Guscussion. But OK - it is getting a bit too large for just drift. If it contiues we will take it to natter.

I'm not mad, Gus. No worries.

No, Typo Boy, that was self-directed. I accidently posted my f2f photos in here.

I'm groping toward a full understanding, in the hope that the discourse here will lead to some clarity.

Can a work attract editorial acumen separate from a distribution channel? I think it can. Can a creator create without having to market? Can a creator create in a way that is not influenced by the marketing?

My suspicion is that the answers here are "Yes." We need a better way.

Can a work attract editorial acumen separate from a distribution channel?

Can, not a work, but a whole economic sector of creative work attract both editorial acumen and all the other support services art requires? Composition of art is often (not always) and individual act. (It depends on the type.) But art is not just about creation; it is about connection - with readers, with views, with an audience, with a public. Contrary to legend, heard melodies are sweeter.

I think it can. Can a creator create without having to market? Can a creator create in a way that is not influenced by the marketing

My suspicion is that the answers here are "Yes." We need a better way

It seems to me that your better way involves one of three alternatives.

1) The better way is within our existing economic system, and you intend that creators continue to be paid, and creative works receive the support of other workers that they need - layout and editing for books, and so forth. In that case you cannot eliminate marketing or responsiveness to markets. No economic sector in this society receives resources without marketing.

2) You intend to advocate for other economic change - a new economic system. All right. But in that case creative workers and the creative sector of the economy get paid for there labor and access to resources by whatever means other types of labor and other economic sectors receive those things. In other words resources remain finite; they have to justify getting a share of those resources - which will involve showing that they have readers/viewers/listeners/an audience/a public/whatever.

3) You intend to seperate creators from the economic system. In which case creation becomes a hobby, or perhaps exists at the mercy of powerful patrons.

In short creative work may be replicable very cheaply once completed. But it takes labor to create it , and labor to let the public know it exists.

Can a creator create without having to market?

Yes. After s/he gets home from the day job, which is probably even more soul-sucking than having to suck up to studio execs. At least under the current economic system. Make sure to put the Fox execs up against the wall in the same round as the tobacco lobbyists.

Dang. I'm in the middle of a Marxist argument about creativity and labour.

I did not want be here. I wanted be in a place where people with editorial skills were not relegated the rank of "labor". I wanted to be in a place where we are all of us creators and consumers are humans, whole and entire.