It was Mal's arrogance which made him believe they could be used without consequences for his own crew.

He never presumed there would be no consequences for his own crew. To the contrary, he told them that there was a high chance of dying.

How would you define the cause that Mal was willing to risk so much for? Combatting the Alliance? Isn't that the same cause that broke him at the battle of Serenity? Not much difference there--in fact, he's thumbing his nose at them in small ways constantly.

But I don't think that using his crew as weapons is anything like unleashing the Reavers--the Reavers are chaotic and unpredictable--his crew is there in that conflict in varying degrees because of their devotion to him and/or the same cause.

It's the difference between asking a favour of a friend and a favour of the Sidhe.

I don't think Mal thought for one second that using the Reavers as a weapon wouldn't be dangerous or have consequences. It was simply the only option he felt he had.

That said, the idea that there was a cost for using them as a weapon does make sense.

As for heroes choosing lives over causes, where does one draw the line? Most causes directly effect lives. Sometimes initial sacrifices have to be made to save more lives down the line.

If Mal chooses the option that doesn't result in loss of life, of his crew, of Alliance soldiers and instead finds away to keep fleeing the Operative, lives are still going to be lost. The Operative made it plain that he would continue slaughtering people until he got River back.

If instead Mal turns River over, that's still two lives sacrificed. River's and Simon's (because I can't see Simon stopping trying to rescue River until one or both of them is dead.) Plus, the Alliance gets their weapon back, and we still don't know exactly what she was going to be used for.

In either case, if Mal just walks away from the truth about Miranda, he's walking away from all those lives lost on Miranda, and all the lives that could be lost should the Alliance try again.

No one on Serenity was forced into the final conflict. Mal makes it perfectly clear during his St. Crispin's speech that all of them could very well die. They chose to come with.

To the contrary, he told them that there was a high chance of dying.

I really thought that he and the others believed this, too. So much of Firefly was about how they were muddling through life, trying to choose the best of really crummy options. The option Mal chose was not a good one, but it was the best he could figure out.

I like TV!Mal better than Movie!Mal, but I think Joss and Tim set it up that way on purpose. I don't think Joss really wanted Mal to be all that likable. Fox said that Mal was too dark, that the show was too dark, and Joss lightened. But clearly Joss went back to his original vision with the movie. Personally, I think that asking Joss and Tim to lighten the show is perhaps the only good thing I attribute to Fox.

I loved Wash, and his death broke my heart. I, too, gasped and cried and was in total shock when I first saw it. I, too, missed many of the details the first time through because of the shock. But I think it worked.

Book's death saddened me and disappointed me. I expect more from Joss. I thought it was done poorly, and I was frustrated because I wanted the second movie to be about his backstory. I felt his death was a waste.

I understand how many feel overwhelmed by Wash's death, but for me it was real and it was important. It was perfect Joss.

First of all, I agree with libkitty that Book's backstory is worth way more keystrokes than it took to kill him.

Perhaps there could be a prequel, in which the life of Book ...

If this is ever made, I shall shoot a random stranger. And blame Joss. And sue somebody. Maybe Joss. 'Cuz he was dangling mysteries about Book in front of me and then did that thing he did, which made me insane like this.

Secondly of all, I shall reluctantly agree with ita. Reluctant only because agreeing with ita is so against even my easy-going nature. Mal had a chance to take it to the Man. He had a chance to actually defeat the Man, due to the Man's actions, due to the failure of the Man's philosophy.

Mal's Krew needed a wake-up. Mal rang the clock.

Everytime this thread is dead for greater than three hours, or a multiple of three, I shall declare The Verse dead.

Can't be dead, I'm here to agree with libkitty. We saw the same movie and liked the same things. I do understand the objections I hear from other folks, but it worked for me. As much as Serenity tied up the River storyline, it also, by proxy, gave me a bit of Buffy back because River was a ditzy (not so blonde) little chick with powers just like Buffy was and I wanted a better ending than just SMG standing there with a sappy smile.

I had no problems with the deaths other than the fact that I had to keep my mouth shut from December 2004 until basically October 2005.

I had no problems with the deaths other than the fact that I had to keep my mouth shut from December 2004 until basically October 2005.

Price of being a spoiler ho (no offense).

He never presumed there would be no consequences for his own crew. To the contrary, he told them that there was a high chance of dying.

That, and they were all dead anyway. The Operative didn't leave much behind even in the circumstances when he did get what he wanted.

As for the other, TV!Mal put lives before causes. It seemed that he had had an epiphany after the battle of Serenity along those lines. Movie!Mal did put the cause before the lives.

I thought it was a question of being forced back into that person he used to be because of the corner they were in.

Price of being a spoiler ho (no offense).

I'm not a spoiler ho. That is when I first saw the movie.