Can you think of any (way generalized) differences between the boys you know who grew up without a father

No, hence my question. The unifying characteristics are more like a) lack/presence of good male role models (having a father didn't guarantee this) and b) the amount of responsibility placed on the kid after a divorce (but it didn't matter if it was a boy or a girl - the effect was similar).

I'm standing next to ita on the "good male role models", particularly ones with a long-term presence. There's a developmental job to be done there, one that can or not be done by a father, other family member, family friend, or, in Mal's case, probably at least a few long-term farm hands.

The particular nature of the person who is that role model is going to have a huge impact.

(This post brought to you by "I think I see what you're getting at, but I think it's too complicated to comfortably simplify.")

David, I would like to know how you meant 'invested in a male culture' too?

I think it's the autocratic authority. Don't question his orders. No explanations, no apologies. Of course, a lot of that is military, but I think the military is a male defined culture. And Mal's character seemed formed before he joined the military. So I'm inclined to chalk it up to his farm experience.

I think it's the autocratic authority. Don't question his orders. No explanations, no apologies

You need to meet the women in my family. All about the autocratic, and it seems to have been passed down to the few sons (the majority of whom aren't being raised by their (or any) fathers) just as well as it passes down to the women.

The more I think about the things that ping me as "male culture" with Mal, the more I can think of examples on the female side. Like, the way Mal deals with pain (denial, no acceding) reminded me of people I did construction work with. But it's really no different from the ballet world my first GF talked about where people typically finished their day with bloody toe-shoes. Probably just my limited sets of reference. (BMECT)

[...] Of course, a lot of that is military, but I think the military is a male defined culture. [...]

"Male defined culture." This phrase has got to be comment bait. What are the "female defined" contemporary cultures?

(That's a question, not a poke.)

Now that I stop to think, I wonder what military Zoe's family might have been from, if any. Was her Mom a military lady?

What are the "female defined" contemporary cultures?

I have no idea, but they are probably closer to the earth.

runs away

This phrase has got to be comment bait. What are the "female defined" contemporary cultures?

See? This is why I don't like talking about this stuff. Any gender generalizing always gets hammered.

I'm sorry though, I do think the military is defined by "male" (though I'm not being essentialist - I'm talking historically, socially) codes of behavior.

Frankenbuddha is a bad buddha.

Also? A funny buddha.

So I'm inclined to chalk it up to his farm experience.

Probably a good bet.

People who grew up farming, in my experience, which granted is basically limited to my mother and her sisters, have certain qualities that can be seen in Mal.