I liked the meals they ate together. And the cake made out of dinner.

I need food.

I think Gus is right about Zoe growing up in a military family, and probably the daughter of an officer, though not high ranking. I don't see a history of wealth, there. She's too comfortable being Mal's second. I have been biting my tongue on this, because the rest of Beverly's character background speculation was so (to my mind, anyhow) spot on, it was spooky.

Okay, someone really needs to explain "What Fathers Make Boys Into" for ita. Clueless and jocky, it seems.

I am not sure I can differentiate, but to me, it's more a case of what the lack of a father does to a boy, and clueless and jocky doesn't play into it. Can you think of any (way generalized) differences between the boys you know who grew up without a father, and the boys who grew up with one present? I'm thinking about friends, and about my two sets of uncles. My maternal grandfather was not very nice, and then was gone, and did not support the family. By the time the oldest of the four boys was 12, and the youngest was almost 8 (with a 3 year old girl, and one on the way--my mum) he was out of the picture. My mother's brothers were differently self-sufficient than were my dad and his brothers. I suspect some of that difference came from learning to help their mom in ways beyond their years. I don't know how to articulate it, but I would have identified Mal as mom-only or mom-mostly reared, even without the canon.

David, I would like to know how you meant 'invested in a male culture' too?

Can you think of any (way generalized) differences between the boys you know who grew up without a father

No, hence my question. The unifying characteristics are more like a) lack/presence of good male role models (having a father didn't guarantee this) and b) the amount of responsibility placed on the kid after a divorce (but it didn't matter if it was a boy or a girl - the effect was similar).

I'm standing next to ita on the "good male role models", particularly ones with a long-term presence. There's a developmental job to be done there, one that can or not be done by a father, other family member, family friend, or, in Mal's case, probably at least a few long-term farm hands.

The particular nature of the person who is that role model is going to have a huge impact.

(This post brought to you by "I think I see what you're getting at, but I think it's too complicated to comfortably simplify.")

David, I would like to know how you meant 'invested in a male culture' too?

I think it's the autocratic authority. Don't question his orders. No explanations, no apologies. Of course, a lot of that is military, but I think the military is a male defined culture. And Mal's character seemed formed before he joined the military. So I'm inclined to chalk it up to his farm experience.

I think it's the autocratic authority. Don't question his orders. No explanations, no apologies

You need to meet the women in my family. All about the autocratic, and it seems to have been passed down to the few sons (the majority of whom aren't being raised by their (or any) fathers) just as well as it passes down to the women.

The more I think about the things that ping me as "male culture" with Mal, the more I can think of examples on the female side. Like, the way Mal deals with pain (denial, no acceding) reminded me of people I did construction work with. But it's really no different from the ballet world my first GF talked about where people typically finished their day with bloody toe-shoes. Probably just my limited sets of reference. (BMECT)

[...] Of course, a lot of that is military, but I think the military is a male defined culture. [...]

"Male defined culture." This phrase has got to be comment bait. What are the "female defined" contemporary cultures?

(That's a question, not a poke.)

Now that I stop to think, I wonder what military Zoe's family might have been from, if any. Was her Mom a military lady?

What are the "female defined" contemporary cultures?

I have no idea, but they are probably closer to the earth.

runs away