For the people here who feel betrayed -- have you felt betrayed by fiction before? Did you know, before you saw Serenity that you could feel betrayed by it? Is there other fiction that can make you feel that way about its 'verse or characters?

Don't you ever sleep, ita? I thought it was late here! Of course, I have, of late, turned into an old fogey.

eta on topic note: I'm up late because I came home from Serenity and had to catch up on every single review or (formerly) spoiler ever written, before going to see it again tomorrow.

I don't feel betrayed, if you're asking me.

This was Joss' movie, and he did what he needed to do to the script and the characters to put as many butts in seats as possible. I don't fault him for that at all. He didn't "betray" my belief in Firefly or those characters. It's another thing. Apples and oranges. The movie wasn't my thing.

But to answer your question about betrayal in other fiction, no, I've never felt betrayed by a work of fiction, unless the writer didn't do the work, and pulled an ending out of thin air with no logical progression to that result. I've mourned for characters lost, to death, to cynicism, to wantonness. But that's not betrayal, that's story development and character development. Betrayal is a different thing.

Firefly has always been a special thing to me, apart from any other show or anything "like" it. Not many folks felt that way, so maybe the depth of my disconnect is strange. But that's what I have: not betrayal, but a quantam leap right out of the 'verse. It's not a bad thing. It's just something else.

I just wonder about the feeling of betrayal at Wash's death. Is Shakespeare not supposed to break your heart when Cordelia dies? Are the New York dock workers not supposed to yell, "Is Little Nell dead?" Isn't that part of the deal?

Absolutely. I love movies/books/TV shows that can break my heart with the deaths of beloved characters. I love that they can write these characters in such a way as to make me care, and care deeply, and I usually enjoy the emotional catharsis that their deaths bring.

Wash's death felt different, to me, because the circumstances of this movie are different for me than any other movie I can think of. I know that a lot of the PR about how "the fans made Serenity happen" is greatly exaggerated, but it still feels like MY movie, MY characters, MY story. And now Wash isn't in that 'verse anymore. It's not the same, and it will never be the same.

Losing Firefly made me sad. Getting it back, even in movie form, in any form at all, felt like a triumph. And then losing Wash broke my fucking heart; it felt like losing Firefly all over again.

I have totally felt betrayed by fiction before. (Though I didn't by this movie.)

I think, for me, Wash wasn't in the movie enough for me to feel the shock of his death.

Can I talk about any specifics about any possible sequel in this thread?

I think as long as it's not spoilers, you should be fine. ETA: Can there be spoilers on something that isn't even a given yet?

Saw the movie last night in a sold out theatre with the best looking crowd of fans I've ever seen. Wash's death is an example of why I like to go in unspoiled. If you're going to kill one of my favourite characters, I may as well feel the impact in the full context of the movie. I'm looking forward to seeing it again with some colleagues who've been partially toastered (they've seen the pilot) - if only to see how they react.

Yeah, definitely thinner and the character was retconned to a degree; i.e., she's not so much of a tomboy this time, more sensitive and weepy.

She was pretty sensitive on the show.

She was more insulated on the show, but when she wasn't I think it was behaviour consistent with what we saw here.

Really? The moment where I felt like, "Fuck this! That's not Kaylee" was when, after previously gay and/incestous Simon says he wanted to have sex with her (boggle) she eagerly grabs the gun. I keep remembering in the show where Mal gives her a gun and tells her to shoot and she CAN'T do it, even to save their lives. That's when we know that River is super capable super spy. Movie!Kaylee eager to pick up a gun and take Reavers down felt so out of character that I think I actually tried to gouge my own eye out with my finger during the screening (since, you know, can't actually talk and bash when seated 5 rows away from Jane Espenson or one row behind studio folk).

Like Beverly (hello lady!) I was pretty angry over a lot of the changes (co pilot chair!) and I'm not angry over it anymore so much as @@.

Thought everyone but Mal and River got sort of dulled down in translation

And, meant to add. YES THIS! All of the characters got flattened out into something I didn't recognize. Zoe became a little less kickass, Jayne was barely there, and Book and Wash and the Kaylee I liked, gone from me. Interestingly Inara was improved by the movie for me because she had so little screen time to be weird-wooden-girl.

My disappointment led me to think about how much I love TV and how disappointing I find movies that aren't utterly silly or movies not geared towards 14 year old girls.

And I know what it is. Movies are like a short story, a novela. I get a segment of what happens and only that. With TV, or at least good TV that is more than living room sitcom, I get character complexity, long range arcs, convoluted stories. Characters have time to grow and deepen and change, even when it is maddening, and I have time to go on that ride with them.