Thought everyone but Mal and River got sort of dulled down in translation

And, meant to add. YES THIS! All of the characters got flattened out into something I didn't recognize. Zoe became a little less kickass, Jayne was barely there, and Book and Wash and the Kaylee I liked, gone from me. Interestingly Inara was improved by the movie for me because she had so little screen time to be weird-wooden-girl.

My disappointment led me to think about how much I love TV and how disappointing I find movies that aren't utterly silly or movies not geared towards 14 year old girls.

And I know what it is. Movies are like a short story, a novela. I get a segment of what happens and only that. With TV, or at least good TV that is more than living room sitcom, I get character complexity, long range arcs, convoluted stories. Characters have time to grow and deepen and change, even when it is maddening, and I have time to go on that ride with them.

dulled down

One of my LJ-friends referred to it as "Lean Cuisine Firefly". It might look okay, and taste okay to someone who's never experienced the real thing, but...

The thing with Miranda and the people drugging = most of the viewing audience was not taken with Firefly as presented, and thus fell asleep. The remaining 13% became Reavers. Err. Browncoats. Rabid frothing fans. Whatev.

Could this map to Buffyverse fans, instead? Could the drugged people map to the fandom that didn't take to BtVS S6 and/or 7 and A:ts S4 and/or 5? The 13% that became Reavers--could they be Spoldemorts or K*ttens.

For the people here who feel betrayed -- have you felt betrayed by fiction before? Did you know, before you saw Serenity that you could feel betrayed by it? Is there other fiction that can make you feel that way about its 'verse or characters?

I haven't seen it yet, but I can answer this question in the affirmative. I have felt betrayed by fiction, before. I've felt betrayed when there's been (what seemed to me to be) a direct about-face in a character driven story. Generally, it doesn't happen to me with a book, or a film. There's not enough time to care (as deeply) about the characters. It's a TV deal for me, and it's got to be a series I've been engrossed with at some time or another. Soaps probably provided the first instance of my feeling betrayed. That feeling is part of why I spoiled for BtVS in the later years.

I spoiled for Serenity, mostly out of fun, boredom, and nosiness. I don't remember spoiling for the Firefly TV series, at least not intentionally, because I didn't have enough time to care to do so. In part, my decision to spoil always comes down to whether or not I trust the creators/writers. I stopped trusting Joss in general (love him, and his works, will give anything he makes a shot, but I stopped trusting his handling or ME's handling of the B-verse characters) and started spoiling. It may have been Dawn that made me stop trusting him. I know the distrust was sealed by the time they made Cordelia a demon on A:ts.

Now, as Beverly points out, they're his characters, and it is his film (or show, or comic book). I seldom get all rabid about what he/ME does/did (my over-reaction to The Girl in Question excepted), but spoiling is how I take care of my heart (and probably ward off the rabies). If I know, going in, that I'm going to be disappointed in some way, I'm not nearly as disappointed. By the way, I'm not going to be the bad kind of hurt/disappointed just because a beloved character dies, or a romance breaks up. When those things are done right, I appreciate them. There's got to be something about the death or break-up, that hits me wrong, and I don't know how to explain that any better.

So...I'm as glad as all get out that I know about Wash's death. It makes me wonder though, how or why I could or would ever care to see any sequels.

All of the characters got flattened out into something I didn't recognize. Zoe became a little less kickass, Jayne was barely there, and Book and Wash and the Kaylee I liked, gone from me.

Yeah, I thought everyone was (at least) a little off, Kaylee least so. Basically I thought it was just OK. There were some kickass parts and some parts that made me @@. My main reaction to Wash getting it was, "Wait. What?" Which doesn't seem right. I kind of feel like I ought to see it again, but if I do, it will be in 10 days when I can use my free passes.

I do agree about That Dress.

Eh. It makes me sad that my reaction to the Big Damn Movie is "eh." I don't think Joss should be allowed to work alone. See also "Objects In Space" commentary.

I don't feel betrayed, if you're asking me.

No, I was asking people that felt betrayed.

Kat, I felt her grabbing the gun was balls-to-the-walls. Higher stakes, and all that. The parts that were clumsy to me were about exclusively Kaylee/Simon -- and not so much OOC as just ... badly written. He rushed it for the movie, and rushed it poorly. He reached too far in terms of what he had to do for each character, and what I think he felt he owed the fans. Kaylee/Simon was where I think it showed the most.

I liked this Zoe. She felt like my Zoe, and exponentially so after Wash died. Jayne felt okay, but it was mostly the funnier Jayne (him cradling the gun while they moved through Reaver space cracked me up) -- he got comic relief. This Simon ... no, not TV!Simon. I didn't like TV Simon enough to care, so I dock Joss points without enjoying him less.

Book? Who the fuck knows? Seemed fine, but I doubt that new viewers will care. Wash -- he was more the conscience than on the show. That's where characters were stripped down for the movie -- most of them are conscience, at different times. In the movie it felt like it was handed to Wash, Book for his brief time, and a bit to Zoe. Everyone else was in it for something smaller than "right."

I had a point ... it's lost. Right. River worked for me. That was TV!River. This was not TV!Mal, at least not all of him. While I think it was consistent Mal behaviour (and perfectly understandable for a newbie), I didn't see the cause of his initial state of mind. Not with how it differed from the series. I think Mal could feel that way. I'd like to know why.

How would it have been if Angelus had snapped Willow's neck instead of Jenny Calendar?

Interesting question. Back then I identified with Willow more than any other fictional character before (or since). I don't know how I would have reacted to seeing a surrogate me get killed onscreen. But deaths in the Jossverse have tended to hurt in a good way that enhanced my viewing experience. Jenny Calendar, Doyle, Tara, and Wesley all had painful deaths that added a savor of truth to the series. Joyce's hit hard enough to break me, but it also made me reconnect to Buffy herself when I'd been disengaging from the character for over a year previously.

Perhaps it's my relative affection for the characters, or the fact that character death bothers me a lot less than character assassination, but Wash's death, while powerful, didn't give me a sense of betrayal, whereas Action!Simon did. I suppose a corrolary can be found in me being livid for a solid year over Saint Cordelia, yet cheering thankfully when they brought the genuine article back briefly only to kill her.

Works of fiction can definitely piss me off. I hadn't really considered betrayal until reading a lot of the reactions here -- which I think is a testament, not to the movie, but certainly to the series.

How could Joss have me feel feelings of betrayal? Without launching into meta? He could fuck with Zoe.

And I understand that I have brought so much freaking baggage of my own to the character that I feel I can barely talk about her anymore (not that it'll stop me) -- I feel outside of canon with every utterance, and would be royally pissed (and robbed, which I guess is the key) if Joss reveals anything that'd make me not be able to feel that way about her anymore.

I don't know if this is a good or sane way to approach fiction controlled by anyone else (actually, for my personal self-preservation, it's decidedly not) and I was wondering what drives the ability to be betrayed by fiction in other people. By the fiction, note. Not the meta.

He reached too far in terms of what he had to do for each character, and what I think he felt he owed the fans. Kaylee/Simon was where I think it showed the most.

I liked this Zoe. She felt like my Zoe, and exponentially so after Wash died. Jayne felt okay, but it was mostly the funnier Jayne (snip) he got comic relief. This Simon ... no, not TV!Simon. (snip)

Book? Who the fuck knows? Seemed fine, but I doubt that new viewers will care. Wash -- he was more the conscience than on the show. That's where characters were stripped down for the movie -- most of them are conscience, at different times. In the movie it felt like it was handed to Wash, Book for his brief time, and a bit to Zoe. Everyone else was in it for something smaller than "right."

This was not TV!Mal, at least not all of him.

This is how I feel. Also, the Lean Cuisine Firefly.

I know, I know, I do really understand that things had to be cut, streamlined and changed to get the movie on the screen. For me, and just me, the changes were just too many and cumulative to keep this story in the 'verse.

(Hi back, pink-haired teacher lady!)

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy Sean Maher's new and improved body, but I'm still annoyed that Simon was essentially an entirely different character with a different backstory and everything.

I ADORED this movie, so I'm surprised about the mixed reaction, although I see where people are coming from.

Anyway, my take when the Wash thing happened was that it felt right, because the stakes of a movie are completely different from a series where you have to keep a core of people around for 100 episodes. If everyone had survived that final massacre I think I would have felt betrayed, like I was lied to about how this was much higher stakes than anything that had happened during Firefly.