I just wonder about the feeling of betrayal at Wash's death. Is Shakespeare not supposed to break your heart when Cordelia dies? Are the New York dock workers not supposed to yell, "Is Little Nell dead?" Isn't that part of the deal?

Absolutely. I love movies/books/TV shows that can break my heart with the deaths of beloved characters. I love that they can write these characters in such a way as to make me care, and care deeply, and I usually enjoy the emotional catharsis that their deaths bring.

Wash's death felt different, to me, because the circumstances of this movie are different for me than any other movie I can think of. I know that a lot of the PR about how "the fans made Serenity happen" is greatly exaggerated, but it still feels like MY movie, MY characters, MY story. And now Wash isn't in that 'verse anymore. It's not the same, and it will never be the same.

Losing Firefly made me sad. Getting it back, even in movie form, in any form at all, felt like a triumph. And then losing Wash broke my fucking heart; it felt like losing Firefly all over again.

I have totally felt betrayed by fiction before. (Though I didn't by this movie.)

I think, for me, Wash wasn't in the movie enough for me to feel the shock of his death.

Can I talk about any specifics about any possible sequel in this thread?

I think as long as it's not spoilers, you should be fine. ETA: Can there be spoilers on something that isn't even a given yet?

Saw the movie last night in a sold out theatre with the best looking crowd of fans I've ever seen. Wash's death is an example of why I like to go in unspoiled. If you're going to kill one of my favourite characters, I may as well feel the impact in the full context of the movie. I'm looking forward to seeing it again with some colleagues who've been partially toastered (they've seen the pilot) - if only to see how they react.

Yeah, definitely thinner and the character was retconned to a degree; i.e., she's not so much of a tomboy this time, more sensitive and weepy.

She was pretty sensitive on the show.

She was more insulated on the show, but when she wasn't I think it was behaviour consistent with what we saw here.

Really? The moment where I felt like, "Fuck this! That's not Kaylee" was when, after previously gay and/incestous Simon says he wanted to have sex with her (boggle) she eagerly grabs the gun. I keep remembering in the show where Mal gives her a gun and tells her to shoot and she CAN'T do it, even to save their lives. That's when we know that River is super capable super spy. Movie!Kaylee eager to pick up a gun and take Reavers down felt so out of character that I think I actually tried to gouge my own eye out with my finger during the screening (since, you know, can't actually talk and bash when seated 5 rows away from Jane Espenson or one row behind studio folk).

Like Beverly (hello lady!) I was pretty angry over a lot of the changes (co pilot chair!) and I'm not angry over it anymore so much as @@.

Thought everyone but Mal and River got sort of dulled down in translation

And, meant to add. YES THIS! All of the characters got flattened out into something I didn't recognize. Zoe became a little less kickass, Jayne was barely there, and Book and Wash and the Kaylee I liked, gone from me. Interestingly Inara was improved by the movie for me because she had so little screen time to be weird-wooden-girl.

My disappointment led me to think about how much I love TV and how disappointing I find movies that aren't utterly silly or movies not geared towards 14 year old girls.

And I know what it is. Movies are like a short story, a novela. I get a segment of what happens and only that. With TV, or at least good TV that is more than living room sitcom, I get character complexity, long range arcs, convoluted stories. Characters have time to grow and deepen and change, even when it is maddening, and I have time to go on that ride with them.

dulled down

One of my LJ-friends referred to it as "Lean Cuisine Firefly". It might look okay, and taste okay to someone who's never experienced the real thing, but...

The thing with Miranda and the people drugging = most of the viewing audience was not taken with Firefly as presented, and thus fell asleep. The remaining 13% became Reavers. Err. Browncoats. Rabid frothing fans. Whatev.

Could this map to Buffyverse fans, instead? Could the drugged people map to the fandom that didn't take to BtVS S6 and/or 7 and A:ts S4 and/or 5? The 13% that became Reavers--could they be Spoldemorts or K*ttens.

For the people here who feel betrayed -- have you felt betrayed by fiction before? Did you know, before you saw Serenity that you could feel betrayed by it? Is there other fiction that can make you feel that way about its 'verse or characters?

I haven't seen it yet, but I can answer this question in the affirmative. I have felt betrayed by fiction, before. I've felt betrayed when there's been (what seemed to me to be) a direct about-face in a character driven story. Generally, it doesn't happen to me with a book, or a film. There's not enough time to care (as deeply) about the characters. It's a TV deal for me, and it's got to be a series I've been engrossed with at some time or another. Soaps probably provided the first instance of my feeling betrayed. That feeling is part of why I spoiled for BtVS in the later years.

I spoiled for Serenity, mostly out of fun, boredom, and nosiness. I don't remember spoiling for the Firefly TV series, at least not intentionally, because I didn't have enough time to care to do so. In part, my decision to spoil always comes down to whether or not I trust the creators/writers. I stopped trusting Joss in general (love him, and his works, will give anything he makes a shot, but I stopped trusting his handling or ME's handling of the B-verse characters) and started spoiling. It may have been Dawn that made me stop trusting him. I know the distrust was sealed by the time they made Cordelia a demon on A:ts.

Now, as Beverly points out, they're his characters, and it is his film (or show, or comic book). I seldom get all rabid about what he/ME does/did (my over-reaction to The Girl in Question excepted), but spoiling is how I take care of my heart (and probably ward off the rabies). If I know, going in, that I'm going to be disappointed in some way, I'm not nearly as disappointed. By the way, I'm not going to be the bad kind of hurt/disappointed just because a beloved character dies, or a romance breaks up. When those things are done right, I appreciate them. There's got to be something about the death or break-up, that hits me wrong, and I don't know how to explain that any better.

So...I'm as glad as all get out that I know about Wash's death. It makes me wonder though, how or why I could or would ever care to see any sequels.

All of the characters got flattened out into something I didn't recognize. Zoe became a little less kickass, Jayne was barely there, and Book and Wash and the Kaylee I liked, gone from me.

Yeah, I thought everyone was (at least) a little off, Kaylee least so. Basically I thought it was just OK. There were some kickass parts and some parts that made me @@. My main reaction to Wash getting it was, "Wait. What?" Which doesn't seem right. I kind of feel like I ought to see it again, but if I do, it will be in 10 days when I can use my free passes.

I do agree about That Dress.

Eh. It makes me sad that my reaction to the Big Damn Movie is "eh." I don't think Joss should be allowed to work alone. See also "Objects In Space" commentary.