But what if it isn't about "deprivation and denial and guilt" to the people involved? What if they see chastity as a rational choice (which it can be) and one their god approves of (which it also is, though their god may not = my god or your god or The God)?

Like you, I have a problem with people being made to feel dirty for being human. But the choice to only have sex in marriage, if freely entered into, is as valid as the choice to sleep with a different person every day for 75 years, or anything in-between.

I'm overstating my case somewhat. Obviously, I respect Nilly's choices in the matter. Most people aren't Nilly, though. And I don't think it's driven out of that kind of thoughtful spirituality, but social pressure and shame. Theoretically? Yes, you're right. Obviously people differe and can make that kind of choice. Historically, in real terms? It's hateful. Part of the long tradition of Christian shame about the body and sex.

And as noted, it's not in the Old Testament and I don't think it's in the Gospels. I blame Paul.

::waits for wife to rush in to defend Paul::

Like you, I have a problem with people being made to feel dirty for being human. But the choice to only have sex in marriage, if freely entered into, is as valid as the choice to sleep with a different person every day for 75 years, or anything in-between.

I agree with this. I am very conservative on this topic but just because that's true doesn't mean I feel "sheltered" or welcome others' pity. I will not condemn others for the choices they make even if I don't agree, but I do not appreciate people telling me I should, for example, sleep with a couple people to find out what I like and that I'll be better for it. (This is not directed at anyone, but just a general me vs. world statement.) I'm better off following my heart and mind for what's best for me. By doing this I will hopefully avoid some guilt just because someone else "said". If my stance differs from someone else's view, so be it, just don't judge me because of it.

::waits for wife to rush in to defend Paul::

JZ has a defense for Paul???

::boggles::

This I gotta hear.

Song of Solomon is in the Bible too, dangit

I made sure this was included in our wedding ceremony. *g*

Song of Solomon has a line I have always wanted my Twoo Wuv to say to me: "You have stolen my heart, my sister, my bride; you have stolen my heart with one glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace."

Yes, I am a cheesy sap.

(And the line from Song of Solomon [NIV] that has always made me laugh: "Your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn." WTF?)

I tend to just not have regrets, period, because everything that I've done or experienced, good or bad, has lead me to a specific place, and I'm kind of happy with that place.

I'm Plei in this. There were some stupid things I did. , but I am here - and that's a really good place to be. A few awful things have happened, but I am where I am and I like where I am , so - I'm ok with that.

sumi,~ma to your friend and her mom. ~ma for Vortex's godson, too.

Plei, only 10.5 weeks? Where did the time go?

Chikat, so very adorable. Yay!

::waits for wife to rush in to defend Paul::

JZ has a defense for Paul???

::boggles::

This I gotta hear.

Paul was kind of weird about sex/marriage, but on the whole, he wasn't as cracked as people make him out to be.

t edit Obviously, I'm not JZ. But I can never keep my mouth shut, it seems.

I'm getting better with not regretting things. Gradually. I mean, if I hadn't fucked up every career decision I made before I was 25, I'd never have been in a position to drop everything and go to England for a year. So I wouldn't have had that whole wonderful experience, and, incidentally, I never would've met Dylan. Which is not to say I wouldn't have had wonderful experiences and met someone great for me if I'd followed one of those other paths, but where I am now is a pretty good place to be.

And I've even started forgiving myself for having been such a gung-ho fundamentalist in my college days. In some ways I was immature for my age, and I'd had a very sheltered upbringing, so it probably wasn't so bad for me to end up in a place where I kind of sheltered myself until I was ready to deal with the world on my own terms. And it wasn't all reading Passion and Purity and giving ourselves guilt and angst. I made some good friends, many of whom are still dear to me to this day, and had a lot of fun in college. Just because I'd do it differently with the wisdom I've gained since doesn't mean I did it wrong then.

JZ has a defense for Paul???

Oh yeah. She's a key apologist for any number of theologians and religious figures (cf. Lewis, C.S.).

Slut?

Edit: Sweet!