I cannot accept Starship Troopers as satire because I don't think it can actually be satire if you're in favor of the fetishized fascism presented in the movie, as the writer and director seem to be.

In rebuttal, I offer: Doogie Howser. Dressed like a Nazi.

But actually, I sort of agree with your point.

I thought ST was just very funny. I loved the 90210-ish quality of the characters.

Was that because he was doing that weirdo dieting to look like a heroin addict?

Yep.

In rebuttal, I offer: Doogie Howser. Dressed like a Nazi.

That's one of the things that lets me watch the movie and laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh.

I would like to think that the actors in the movie thought they were making a satire of nazism/fascism (to the extent that some of them thought -- Caspar Van Diem doesn't strike me as the cereberal type), but in order to be satire, it needs to be intended on the part of the writer and director, which is where I don't believe it was intended as satire.

I don't know too much about the screenwriter, but I understand the director, Paul Verhoven, is very similar to John Milius in personality - uber-macho.

FWIW, Paul Verhoven has stated that ST is satire.

FWIW, Paul Verhoven has stated that ST is satire.

I know. I'm not sure I believe him, but that's all about me.

but in order to be satire, it needs to be intended on the part of the writer and director, which is where I don't believe it was intended as satire.

Well, I dunno. I think there's hints of it in the completely absurd "Newsreel" footage used throughout the movie. But it's NOWHERE in the actual narrative or in the characterizations themselves. I don't demand that one of the characters challenge the prevailing worldview, but if neither the characters or the narrative shows this is satire, how can it be satire?

It's just a bad, bad, bad, bad movie. Gah.

Again with the bad. And the brain-sucking. Eeeewwwww.

Well, Verhoeven did make Robo-cop, which actually seemed like a satire on fascist impulses. But, yeah, I've heard both sides on Starship Troopers, and I think that Verhoeven may have thought he was making a satire, but his lack of respect for his audience (and dearth of humor) killed any satirical content. The movie plays like a straightforward, almost nihilistic, embrace of military culture. Y'know, I can appreciate some nihilism in cinema and as a cultural statement, but it has to have some smarts behind it. Verhoeven may have thought he was playing Celine, but it came across as Mein Kampf.

IOW, authorial intent is irrelevant. The movie doesn't work as satire, or as straight adventure. So I don't much care what the director says.

Right. Much as I enjoy the image of Neil Patrick Harris in a rubber SS trenchcoat, I have to say that calling the movie Starship Troopers a satire of life under the Nazis makes for some queasy equations down the line. For instance, if the human army is Nazi, that would mean that bugs = Jews, homosexuals, and the all-encompassing Other. Generally speaking, that's not exactly a salutory comparison. I like my unjust victimhood to have, you know, a face and something other than a hive-like, diabolical mind.

Although I'm always pleased when unjust victimhood gets to rip off the faces of bland, irritating WB-fare hipsters.

Of all the SF novels I've read, Starship Troopers is probably the ripest for Nazi comparisons (for one thing, why is there such a highly-trained, terrifying army, if the whole world is unified and right-thinking? If not for bugs, whom would these soldiers be killing?), but that movie is a gross failure to satirize.

I mean, a Nazi cheesecake failure, which is its own form of MST3K entertainment, but even the cheesecake was cut-rate.

I like my unjust victimhood to have, you know, a face and something other than a hive-like, diabolical mind.

But if the entire movie is a satire, don't they have to make the not-actually-bad-guys appear that way? The nod and the wink seem to take place off the celluloid.

I think if the director intended it to be satire, it is. Now, it might be the worst satire ever, but as far as judging it goes, I think putting it up against the intentions is a valid place to start. "Worst satire ever, works better as a love story" (or whatever). But even if he'd ended up with the best love story ever, if he'd intended it to be a satire, that should come up repeatedly in discussion.