Dwarves would take issue with you dissing the hammer as a weapon of choice. IJS.

Dwarves are only forced to use hammers because they've been stereotyped as miners. Dwarves should rise up and fight anti-Dwarvish establishment that's keeping them, erm, down.

You spoke to a bunch of people who really know what they are doing - something that makes a thousand times more difference than which of two or more possible objects are being used as a weapon in their hand.

But Sean, you forgot that I spoke to a bunch of people who make a living studying attacks that actually happen.

We aren't trained to fight against Bruce Lee so much as John Doe. Because John Doe's likelier to attack us. We have techniques that start with "this is a dumb attack, but be grateful if someone launches it at you -- here's how you work with it. Here are the principles."

I've obviously given krav a bad rep if you think it's anything other than self-defense against (primarily) realistic situations (I still figure I'm a long way away from being attacked with a submachine gun).

Take our gun defense, for instance. Crack, you may say. You can't defend against a gun! But experience has shown that many many attackers armed with guns do the DUMB thing, the people who don't "really know what they're doing" will leave the gun just about within arm's reach when they attack. So that's what we're trained to work against.

Dude, you get an experienced knife fighter, and it's not even a discussion. You will get fucked up and not even know it until you see the blood. But if you give a five year old a sharp knife and tell him to go for you, you'll probably get cut too. That's the sort of weapon it is. Give him a hammer and YOU (not that highly trained krav person, but you, Sean), you'll probably get it away without any injuries. The principles that back that up don't disappear just because you age your wielder 25 years.

Fact is, I can use a knife to defend myself without even moving it. I can use it in the same angles and manners as a hammer is useful. I can use it in yet other manners and angles. But somehow you remain unconvinced. I just don't get it.

You won't listen to me, fine. But bring martial artists into it -- bring observers of fights. Bring people who prosecute armed attacks. Ask their opinions. I'm very interested in what I seem to be missing here.

I'm not as scary as ita - I've been doing jiujitsu for 15 years, but I'm not in any sort of physical shape at the moment. However, I agree with everything she just said. I'd so much rather have someone, of any level of expertise, attack me with a hammer than someone, of any level of expertise, attack me with a knife.

To revise my earlier post, on reflection I'd give my impromptu army spears rather than clubs/hammers. Just to set the record straight.

On the gun thing, I was trained to use a sidearm for a previous job, and combining that with what I've learned on the jiujitsu mat = never get close to someone and threaten them with a gun. Just shoot them. Even I can take a gun away from someone without getting shot, and I am not the strongest or fastest, or even close. I've never yet prevented any of the other high-ranked belts from taking my gun away (or making me not want to use it, by jamming it into my neck, for example) in class in the standard "Gimme All Your Money" drill.

never get close to someone and threaten them with a gun

That seems so sensible, doesn't it? Yet, apparently, the gun is such a symbol of power that your average attacker feels invulnerable with it, and treats it carelessly. Stand ten feet away, make your victim lie face down on the ground and scoot their valuables toward you. That's how you rob at gunpoint. For crhist's sake, don't touch them.

You won't listen to me, fine. But bring martial artists into it -- bring observers of fights. Bring people who prosecute armed attacks. Ask their opinions. I'm very interested in what I seem to be missing here.

Not to drag this out any longer than it needs to be dragged out in the movie thread, but what you're missing is that I never doubted your krav training and experience, the startling deadliness of the knife, or the credentials of your krav trainers.

In fact, I never stopped listening to you, but at this point, I reallly do feel like you have me arguing something I'm not actually arguing. It's starting to seem like you're having a very different argument with me than I'm having with you, especially when all I really chimed in to say originally was "hey, don't dis the hammer."

Well, ya know, ita is Argue Girl.

And on the topic of knives and movies, I have Kill Bill vol. 1 sitting here, and think I will pop it in the ol' DVD player while I clean the house.

Am I missing your point? You don't think the hammer is as good a weapon as the knife? If you don't, I apologise for mischaracterising your point. I was pretty sure that's what you'd said.

If you do think they're equivalently useful for self-defense, I disagree, but realise there's nothing more I know that can change your mind.

I delivered pizza part-time while I was in college, and was robbed once at gunpoint. I had the pizzas in one hand while I knocked on the door -- the last in the row -- and a guy with a nylon mask came around the corner and stuck a .45 automatic in my side, below and behind the elbow of the arm I had the pizzas in. Two others masked guys followed him around the corner. They got two large pizzas and $17 in ones. I drove across the street to the pay phone at a Wendy's and called the cops, who took half an hour to show up, talked to me about for a couple of minutes, and declined to be shown where the robbery occurred. When they talked to my manager the next day they suggested to him that I had taken the pizzas and the money myself. The manager knew better. Nothing more was ever said about the incident.

My point? Well, aside from "Ooh, ooh, I have a story that fits the topic!" I guess my point is that rules of engagement are an important part of self-defense. I wasn't going to try to fight with my hands encumbered and a gun in my side, or with only two pizzas and $17 of someone else's money at stake.

Am I missing your point?

Yes. Still.

Let's put it this way --

If YOU come at ME, I really don't care whether you're wielding a hammer or a knife, ita. Either way, I'm fucked.

If I come at YOU, it really doesn't matter which I'm holding, you're going to take it away from me, and I doubt you're going to get cut, only because it's ME.

If someone who knows what they're doing with their particular weapon attacks you, who the person is, and how well they use their weapon is way more important than which weapon it is.

If it's a guy who, for some unfathomable reason, loves the hammer as a personal weapon, and has spent night and day of the last thirty years making his hammer an extention of himself, and who knows how to fight, I think you're going to need to worry about the hammer.