Am I missing your point?

Yes. Still.

Let's put it this way --

If YOU come at ME, I really don't care whether you're wielding a hammer or a knife, ita. Either way, I'm fucked.

If I come at YOU, it really doesn't matter which I'm holding, you're going to take it away from me, and I doubt you're going to get cut, only because it's ME.

If someone who knows what they're doing with their particular weapon attacks you, who the person is, and how well they use their weapon is way more important than which weapon it is.

If it's a guy who, for some unfathomable reason, loves the hammer as a personal weapon, and has spent night and day of the last thirty years making his hammer an extention of himself, and who knows how to fight, I think you're going to need to worry about the hammer.

I doubt you're going to get cut, only because it's ME.

Dude, you misunderstand my point. Chances are non-negligible I will get cut. That's the bulk of my point. The scenario with the five-year old? Give one of them an unsheathed lipstick or an uncapped marker and try to get it away from them without getting marked -- not that easy.

If someone who knows what they're doing with their particular weapon attacks you, who the person is, and how well they use their weapon is way more important than which weapon it is.

You're right. I did misunderstand, then. I'd read too much into:

I think that regular run of the mill hammers are probably just as effective as kitchen knives for home defense - possibly less dangerous to your opponent, but less likelyhood of accidentally opening an artery.

since I don't think the likelihood of injuring oneself is significant, certainly not to outweigh its other actual strengths.

I was only arguing in the home defense situation that you brought up, you know.

ita said above that if you're fighting someone with a knife, you should know you're going to get cut, but you can still win anyway. (Edit: not realizing I would crosspost with the woman herself, I meant way above.) It's obvious even to me that if you're holding the handle of the knife with the blade pointed toward the other person, they'd pretty much have to grab the blade to get it away from you. So their hand, at least, would get cut. Anyway.

Stand ten feet away, make your victim lie face down on the ground and scoot their valuables toward you.

Hey! That's what my robbers did! They weren't so dumb after all. They did let us negotiate, but the guy with the gun stayed further away.

I was only arguing in the home defense situation that you brought up, you know.

And I conceded in the initial statement:

possibly less dangerous to your opponent,

That the knife is in general more dangerous to your attacker, and yet STILL....

The point I was vaguely trying to make, then, and have become more and more clear about over the last twenty-four hors is that just about every other factor besides the choice of weapon is more important to the outcome of said confrontation.

Is a knife even available where I am in the house? Is the guy standing right in front of me, or can I crack his skull open with the hammer when he comes unsuspecting around a corner? How dark is it? How big is the guy? How well trained? How sharp is the knife?

Don't obsess on my opening statement, that was so five minutes ago. I've moved on from that specific scenario, which was never all that specific to begin with.

(I sort of suspect that, if your average person surprised a burglar in her kitchen, picking up anything and menacing the burglar with it would freak the burglar out so bad he would run away. The person who lives there has a reason to win the fight, and the burglar really doesn't. Unless he is an assassin or a crazy person, in which case the person who lives there has a good chance of losing, and that is when knowing how to beat your opponent down with a rolled-up back issue of Cosmo becomes an issue.)

(Therefore, hammer or knife or cast-iron frying pan, it's really about the attitude of "Go away you dumb crook!" that is a nice offensive weapon.)

On topic, I am sort of surprised that more horror movie villains do not use frying pans. Always the knives, they go for. These dudes are (a) villains, (b) insane, and (c) usually undead. Shouldn't they be dumber, and try to kill Our Heroine with, like, a can of creamed corn or a baguette or something? But no, always the knives, except when it's a chain saw.

On topic, I am sort of surprised that more horror movie villains do not use frying pans.

It's so funny you mention this, as I have a comedy/horror short film I'm trying to get made that involves the use of a frying pan as a lethal weapon.

I'm sorry Sean. I've found I'm pretty bad at telling when you've abandoned your starting point for another tack.

The other stuff? Well, no. I still disagree with you. If I have to grab one thing to defend myself (how can we have any discourse that's not approaching some level of all things being equal? Why would you even get started? It was one of my basic assumptions.) around the house, I'm not grabbing a paperback book. Or the toothpaste. Some things are definitely better than others. I maintain, and you disagreed (at least initially -- I still don't know if you now agree) that the knife is a better grab than a hammer.

Let's just nuke the attacker from orbit -- it's the only way to be sure.

So, to sum up, talk down to me a little and put big signs up tell me when you've changed your point. Because I'm not good at seeing it on my own.

Horror movie villains probably don't use frying pans because slashing is more fun. Otherwise they'd be called crusher movies, wouldn't they? Lar and Samwise use frying pans. They're not horrific -- they're dedicated retainers. And they don't get as much play.

Don't obsess on my opening statement, that was so five minutes ago.

What bugs me, defensively, is that you called ita's argument crazy, and that she is also a whackaloon, despite the fact that she's, well, right.

If Jesse is attacked in her kitchen (this is the person and place we're talking about, not your kitchen, which is apparently filled with many hammers), does she have a better shot of defending herself with a hammer, or a knife?

Your original argument is that the knife and hammer are equally unweildy when used for self defense by an unexperienced fighter. That is not true.

I'm sorry Sean. I've found I'm pretty bad at telling when you've abandoned your starting point for another tack.

It's okay, I'm pretty bad about being able to tell when you're arguing for fun and silly debate, or when you're getting serious about the argument.

As for how to tell when I've abandoned my starting point, that usually happens between zero and five minutes after I've made the statement. I'm mercurial like that.

I maintain, and you disagreed (at least initially -- I still don't know if you now agree) that the knife is a better grab than a hammer.

I should point out that I really started this all in a spirit of silliness which I tried to maintain through the whole thing, but let me be clear on something -- if there's an attacker in my house, and for some reason there's a ball-peen hammer and a large, sharp kitchen knife lying side by side, just within my reach, I'm grabbing the knife.

I just felt somebody needed to stand up for the hammer, as I don't feel it's as useless as all that. I mean - choice between knife and hammer? Knife. Choice between hammer and something else that doesn't have a blade or a bullet, probably the hammer. Depending.

What bugs me, defensively, is that you called ita's argument crazy, and that she is also a whackaloon, despite the fact that she's, well, right.

You should see my last post, Allyson. I started the argument in a spirit of silliness which colors many debates around the board.

I kinda figured the specific use of the word "WHACKALOON" would have clued everybody in to that fact.

Actually, to be very clear, the whole thing started when I complained about not being able to get into verbal sparring with ita over a silly subject, and she obliged. I never once took this argument very seriously, I certainly hope no one else did, though I'm starting to suspect that perhaps they did.