Tep, what was the throwing-the-remote line? Was it the "stronger" line or the "what makes you think he was in control?" line or another one I'm forgetting entirely?

Tim writes snark so often that it's clear he either is snarky or desperately wants to be. I can tell things like that.

I always confuse him and Clive Owen.

Oh God. It's like I don't even know you.

Tep, what was the throwing-the-remote line? Was it the "stronger" line

Oh, you're right -- it wasn't the final line. It was the "this will make you stronger" line. While I understand that Rebecca's intent (and, by proxy, the intent of the show) may have been to say "Look, you *will* survive this, and be stronger for it," the overall impact it left with me was to conflate S&M with sexual violence, which is all kinds of wrong.

What Brandt said was specifically and ONLY about consensual sexual activity; having Rebecca refer back to that statement, using the same wording he used, in the context of completely non-consensual sexual violence, ends up linking S&M and sexual violence.

I have a big problem with that.

What Brandt said was specifically and ONLY about consensual sexual activity

well we know it's consensual, but brandt had some issues with determining consensus. chaining Becky against her will, without any discussion of limits, that's not cool. Brandt discussed "safe words" but he only gives those rules lip service, which is why he was probably booted from the club. you have to have the conversation first. Brandt never did. Bad top. No biscuit.

After Rebecca says it will make him stronger she says "believe me." My take is that she is speaking from her experience. I think the implication is that what Brandt's games do is give the illusion of strength. What he has just experienced is the real deal.

I think the implication is that what Brandt's games do is give the illusion of strength. What he has just experienced is the real deal.

Brandt's assrape, you mean? The *actual* crime? That's not a "real deal" version of S&M.

I understand that not everyone has my opinion, and that's cool.

Bad top. No biscuit.

This may be my favorite saying ever. May I tag?

I think the implication is that what Brandt's games do is give the illusion of strength. What he has just experienced is the real deal.

But this has been kind of bothering me too. It implies that Brandt, at least, and maybe SM in general, is "playing at" things he doesn't understand, like a suburban teenager playing at being a gang member, and that he will be -- should be -- shocked out of it by encountering the "real thing," as though it were a childish phase.

It's hard to say about Brandt, because he's a fictional creation whose actions we see very little of, but it's unjust when applied to SM in general. Most people in SM are perfectly aware that actual sexual violence is nothing they want at all. In addition, there are a lot of people who have encountered the "real thing" and are into SM anyway.

ETA: Okay, well, obviously it was going to be a crosspost, because it took me so damn long to type! Anyway, what Steph said.

The "real deal" I was talking about is the strength gained from surviving a truly scary experience.

I see. It wasn't clear because I don't think he'd "experienced" a gain in strength just yet. But also because I'm not entirely convinced about what the women gained from scenes with him being an illusion, either.

"If he *hadn't* decided to kill himself, our good guys woulda been too late,"

It was too late. He did exactly what he wanted -- raped and killed a bunch of women, raped a guy, killed himself. All the FBI did was cleanup. Didn't stop a damn thing, or save anyone.

The newbie doesn't know where the new thread-title picking is done these days. Here?

Newbie with user id of 85. Sure.

I like the interpretation of Rebecca's final line being about the difference between simulated violence where the "victim" is in control (Brandt's deal), and violent crime, where even the perpetrator is only nominally in control. As in he said his deal would make her stronger (which strikes me as overly romantic), and she was more "what does not kill you, but kinda almost does, will make you stronger."

I think they're both wrong, but I still like the line and my reading thereof.

I don't like Rebecca much. I understand Rachel's doing exactly the right job, just like Morena was doing the right Inara.

She's just bland to me. I'm waiting for all the other bits.