Thank you, thank you, Joss.

I was thinking more that all the little individual storylines and fights could have been fleshed out more.

WRT the unended ending--Aurelia and I were both reminded of Thelma and Louise

Oh, yeah, before sleep, wanted to thank Joss, and Jeff Bell, and, you know, everyone else.

WRT the unended ending

what is the point of an unended ending? Are we supposed to think there's a possibility of survival? Is it to suggest that the ending is just too depressing/sad/whatever to be viewed, so they're "drawing a veil" over it?

With the rumors of movies etc. (no matter how nebulous) floating about, would those be prequels? I like closure.

Did you see the gigantic, lumbering, shadowy figure behind the horde of demons, its head higher than the dragon's altitude?

I saw something, but wasn't sure what. But even the Balrog can be beaten.

I come down in favor of Angel having told Lorne to kill Lindsey, because of the bitterness in the last Angel/Lorne exchanges and because of the way Angel told Eve Lindsey wasn't coming back.

Yes, this.

Angel had good reason to suspect Lindsey would flip sides;

Lindsey's only ever had one side: Lindsey. I have no doubt Angel's very well aware of this.

And at the same time, it's Angel sacrificing an ally, if not an innocent. Like Angel sacrificed Drogyn. Angel choosing the lesser evil for a greater goal. If his dearest friends are potential sacrifices on the altar of this victory, damn sure he's gonna throw Lindsey on the pyre, too.

And if nothing else, he's not doing all this, sacrificing (probably) himself and his friends, to hand Lindsey the keys to the castle.

Lorne's bitterness may be that he's not the guy who likes violence; that he can't stand seeing the good guys make bad choices; that people he cared for are dead, and he's left with nothing, not even who he thought he was.

Remember where he started, though. Lorne back in the day walked a certain line, choosing to stay more-or-less neutral in the fight. I can see his walking away now as a reaction against what Angel's made him agree to do (and remember, Lorne's known Lindsey as long or almost as long as Angel has - I don't buy that he suddenly saw something in his soul that shocked him all that much), but there's another aspect to it. Lorne's taking himself back out of the game. He doesn't have the stomach for it. He enjoyed being a good guy, at least once he didn't have somewhere else to be - a lot like Harmony, actually. But I think he was always more comfortable on the sidelines. So while he's willing to do "one last thing" for Angel, he's not willing to put himself on the line with the rest of them, not if he can help it.

Do not go gentle into that good night...

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

I've wept before for fictional characters. Wesley Windham-Price is the only one for whom I wept silently, hands over mouth to hold my heart in, knees pulled up to my chest....

what is the point of an unended ending?

Well for both Angel and Thelma and Louise I think it says that while the story may have ended for the characters, on a metaphoric level the stuggle continues, because it's our struggle.

what is the point of an unended ending? Are we supposed to think there's a possibility of survival? Is it to suggest that the ending is just too depressing/sad/whatever to be viewed, so they're "drawing a veil" over it?

IMO, because it doesn't matter if they win or lose. What matters is that they keep fighting.

tina, that's right! I remember. And then you basically had to go through the hellmouth (or a little misunderstanding with the Police) to watch, didn't you? I'm so glad you stayed around!

Yep, Cindy, and I don't think I would have kept posting if it wasn't for you. I expected to just post and go back to lurkdom but you asked me how I got into Buffy and found the Buffistas and it felt, you know, rude, to not answer : ). I blame this all on you. Then I had to come back and tell the "I-got-arrested-in-the-middle-of-the-finale story."

And don't think I wasn't watching the door a bit through this finale expecting the police to show up and cart me away. I made sure I was traffic violation-free a week ago - but I thought maybe getting arrested during Jossverse finales was going to become my "thing."

I missed the credits at the end - how did Joss' name come up in a surprising way?

Oh - and add me to the stunned, broken, loved-ever-second-of-it list. I am so sad - but so happy that Angel and crew (minus Wes sob) got to go out fighting.

I want a t-shirt with all of Ilyria's lines on them! "I will bring back their spines as trophies." I love her.

I so screamed "CONNOR!!" when he showed up during the Not!Jayne and Angel fight. That along with wearing my Sunnydale High t-shirt, consuming almost a whole bottle of wine by the end of teaser, screaming "kiss, kiss!!" during almost ever scene in Smallville w/ Clark and Lex and crying no less than three times during the Angle finale convinced all of my casual-but-still-devoted Angel watching friends that I do really need serious help.

I figured that Angel ordered Lorne to kill Lindsey. And that is the only human I can ever remember Lorne even harming - so I would guess that pushed his depressed ass right over the edge.

back to catching up

I missed the credits at the end - how did Joss' name come up in a surprising way?

I believe they were referring to the quick cut from Angel taking his first swing at 1 of 30,000 to "Executive Producer Joss Whedon".

(Hey, I'm still not asleep.)