Who did Angel need to be good for? Didn't he stop being evil pretty sharpish?

I know Buffy affected him, but I think she catalysed him, not that he needed her around anymore, except in the wuv4eva way. And see how that turned out.

Because she's a follower, and this is more fun than the cult, and Angel's cute?

and

Harmony's miserable when she's not part of a clique, and this is the closest she's been able to come since being vamped. Having minions didn't work, joining a cult didn't work, so why not try a corporation?

It was set up, I guess. I just can't buy how it started.

Presoul!Spike was evil but he also had this persistent human habit of following his heart and falling in love.

With Spike, he was physically prevented from sating his bloodlust, so something else started motivating his actions. I just don't buy the social pressure angle. I wish they didn't do the blood test thingie at the beginning of the season. I would have rather thought Harm was sneaking humans when nobody was looking, and have been mad at the MoG for being too compromised to think it through.

That said, I've just handwaved it this season, because I have enjoyed Harmony.

Who did Angel need to be good for? Didn't he stop being evil pretty sharpish?

Wasn't that Doyle's premise for getting Angel to accept assignments from the PTB via the visions?

With Spike, he was physically prevented from sating his bloodlust, so something else started motivating his actions.

Spike's lovey-doveyness was present long before the chip. Didn't the Judge tell him it made him stink of humanity or something? So vampires can have human traits that interfere with their evil vampire natures. Some have more than others. Even Holden had a human need to play head doctor, before his vampire nature overtook it.

Wasn't that Doyle's premise for getting Angel to accept assignments from the PTB via the visions?

Well, he'd started actively doing good before then. He stopped doing evil when he got the soul, did the odd not-bad thing, was shocked out of a lapse into rat-eating by seeing the pre-pubescent Buffy, then started doing good acts with her. And then without her, charged by the PTB, and then working for Shanshu.

I'm not seeing him doing good for someone the same way Spike was for Buffy, or Harmony is for anyone that asks firmly, the little slut.

Spike did love Drusilla, but that didn't keep him from killing other people. Pre-Buffy, Angel was prevented from killing humans out of guilt, but he didn't have any motivation for being proactively good.

(it's never been clear why she'd want a job when she could just be killing--I think this is one place where the mythology has really started to fall apart).

Maybe she's just really crappy at the killing, too.

Spike did love Drusilla, but that didn't keep him from killing other people.

Yes but if Drusilla wasn't a crazy evil vampire, but instead a girl who didn't want him to kill, it might have prevented him from it. The trait was able to get him to act against his vampire nature. Like in Triangle. The chip only prevented him from inflicting direct harm, he could have released Drusilla and had himself a really good day.

Spike's lovey-doveyness was present long before the chip. Didn't the Judge tell him it made him stink of humanity or something?

Yes it was and yes, both Spike and Drew (and bookish!vamp minion) stank of humanity. I wasn't trying to argue against that. I just wouldn't equate Harm with Lorne. I'd equate her actions with Chipped!Spike, but I don't buy her journey, or would have liked to see it more explained.

So vampires can have human traits that interfere with their evil vampire natures. Some have more than others. Even Holden had a human need to play head doctor, before his vampire nature overtook it.

Yes. They have other interests, or other things that are important to them. But Spike didn't have good feelings for a human who was good, until his ability to actively sate his desire to murder humans was turned off.

I have a whole big thesis on this, somewhere...

Well, he'd started actively doing good before then. He stopped doing evil when he got the soul, did the odd not-bad thing, was shocked out of a lapse into rat-eating by seeing the pre-pubescent Buffy, then started doing good acts with her. And then without her, charged by the PTB, and then working for Shanshu.

I'm with Ita, here. When Angel got his soul, he at the very least refrained from doing evil, which was a pretty big step up.

He failed pretty miserably to hook back up with Darla and co. in China, and couldn't bring himself to feed on humans. He enetered a long withdrawn period--including the short time being 'drafted' by the Navy and his allowing the people in the hotel to die in AYNOHYEB--eventually culminating in his Manilow loving days, wherein, in a moment of weakness, he fed on someone who was already dead. Presumably, that kicked him into his crazy, rat-eating days that Whistler found him in.

But on the whole, his shift toward good was largely self-driven.