Speaking of Halle, I told a potential date yesterday that I was going to enjoy a day of watching crappy movies, and his immediate response was "Catwoman?"

Girl should be told that if a diva loses our crowd's respect when following in the footsteps of Julie Newmar, it's a BAD sign.

But on frontier planets, things tend to fall into more old-fashioned ruts. Women cook, wash, tend the babies, men hunt, build, tend the fields. There would be crossover, sure. But probably, the more primitive the conditions, the more stereotypical the role, and the more difficult it would be to step outside that assigned role. There would be either laws or public opinion against it. Possibly religious rules.

I would think that this would vary pretty dramatically, but if anything, I think it would be the opposite. Granted, there were the worlds in OMR and HoG, which appeared to be as you describe. But then think of Patience. She didn't seem to live in a place bound by gender rules. From the real world, I have family that homesteaded in Alaska. My understanding is that the work was so hard for everyone, that there wasn't time to be too bound by gender issues. This was in the 50's, so yeah, my aunts tended to care for the kids. But they also plowed the mile long homestead road, shot game, commercial fished, and worked with their spouses to build their houses.

And re: Zoe talking more to Wash, I just don't see it. None of Zoe's relationships seem to be based on all that much talking. That whole laconic thing would not be ironic for her, as it was for Wash.

Edited to say: Wow, don't you love how I stay on topic for the Angel thread?! I forgot myself, and assumed I was on Firefly. Sorry folks!

But on frontier planets, things tend to fall into more old-fashioned ruts.

This is both true and untrue, historically. Women got the vote first in western, frontier states like Wyoming long before they got it in the Civilized East. Race-mixing has historically been far more prevalent in frontier areas than in places well-settled. The whole idea of the frontier, as expressed by mythologists like Davy Crockett and James Fenimore Cooper and for that matter The Virginian was that the frontier and the standard social order were opposites. I think that's awfully simplified, but the point remains that populations in flux and transit can sometimes be surprisingly generative and fly in the face of social norms.

Speaking of social norms, it always amused me that when Angel acted anachronistic, he tended to come off like a grumpy 70 year old man, rather than someone closer to 270. Like, if you reach a certain age, even if you look no older, you are automatically granted membership in the crabby golfers' club.

But on frontier planets, things tend to fall into more old-fashioned ruts.

This is both true and untrue, historically.

So, historically speaking, what frontier planets are we talking about?

(Sorry)

I think I need an icon for sticking out my tongue at people.

:-P

Have an emoticon.

Yah, I did thtink of Patience. But I thought of her, like mama Reynolds and the homesteading Alaskans you mention, as taking advantage of the dearth of men to do the "traditionally male" tasks, and thus circumventing the usual gender division of work. Which, as you point out, is a function of frontier societies. So thanks for poking holes in my theory. It gives me more to ponder.

So thanks for poking holes in my theory. It gives me more to ponder.

Any time! I'm sure I can count on you to do the same in return the future. I try to avoid emoticons here, but :)

Speaking of social norms, it always amused me that when Angel acted anachronistic, he tended to come off like a grumpy 70 year old man, rather than someone closer to 270. Like, if you reach a certain age, even if you look no older, you are automatically granted membership in the crabby golfers' club.

Well, to be fair to Joss, there aren't that many actual 270 year-olds around to pattern Angel's behavior after. If we figure the return of his soul in 1898 as being a fresh start for determining behavior and attitudes, he'd probably bear some resemblance to the most aged of people in nursing homes.

It would have been ace, though. "What! They've Reformed Parliament? And what's this I hear about the Corn Laws? Bloody Whigs!"