Why not for Lindsey, then?

Because he's given Lindsey so many chances, and Lindsey keeps turning around and stabbing him in the back. Or whatever.

Wes moments tracking, S1 only, but written in S4

post-Salvage look at 5x5

Heh, funny x-post.

That may be the first real change, but before that, we learned there was more to Wesley than met the eye in "I've Got You Under My Skin," with his random bad-dad memory, and there's also his badass moment in "The Ring," where he sticks the guy's hand into the freaking wall.

I'd also put a lot of weight on being able to take Angel down in "Epiphany", and Angel's acknowledgement of it.

I'd also put a lot of weight on being able to take Angel down in "Epiphany", and Angel's acknowledgement of it.

That's "Eternity," but yeah.

If season 5 has always been meant to end this way (and there was discussion Weds. about how this may have been the plan for the end of season 6, had there been one, and season 5 would have ended with Angel joining the black hand - my guess is the scene in the teaser of POWER PLAY might have been meant as the last scene in season 5; they may have prepped for both eventualities since they've been a bit of a bubble show for a while now), and they got a season 6, I think he would have said something different, but still gave some warning.

From this article:

Here's a one-line summary for Season 6 of "Angel," courtesy of series co-creator Joss Whedon:

"If you buck the system and do your best to make it collapse, what if it does?"

So S5 must've been meant to end with some kind of a collapse all along (though presumably not so much with the EVERYBODY DIES!)

I don't get the part where the WB is a bunch of asswipes. 5 years is a huge long time in teevee. Huge. THIS season was the bonus season. They barely got this season, and in order to do so, had to lay people off and cut production values.

So it irks me greatly that Joss was taken by some huge surprise. Why? They barely squeaked by to get this one.

Also - I think people are missing a point here. A lot of the fan wanking is not to argue that this is how it would go, but that the point is the ending is unresolved We've outline a bunch of scenarios where everybody lives; we could even more easily do a lot of variations on how everyone dies. And everything in between - where some live and some die.

And that is the essence of the ending. The fight contiues - what happens next is unresolved. By not telling any one story it tells all the stories.

Also wondering if it's a problem that the Deeper Well no longer has a guardian.

This is the one thing that bothers me about Power Play and the finale - Angel killing Drogyn. Maybe there was a good reason for it, or maybe Drogyn was in on the plan, or maybe Drogyn was evil in some way. But the only canonical justification Angel provides is "they would have killed both of us", coupled with the underlying justification that the ends (striking a major blow at evil) justify the means (killing an innocent.) I'm not satisfied.

This theme is actually paralleled in this season's 24. (Whitefonted) Earlier in the season Jack pulls the trigger on Chase w/o knowing the gun isn't loaded. He was ready to kill him for the greater good. And of course more recently Jack kills Chapelle, again, for the greater good. The difference there is that Jack was trying to prevent the direct threatof a biological weapon being released and killing a zillion people Angel, OTOH, chose to take on the Black Thorn, not to save a zillion people directly (indirectly perhaps) but to take a stand and make it hurt. A laudable goal no doubt, but I'm not buying that it's worth the death of the keeper of Deeper Well.

I think the reason Joss is irritated is that he cut costs, got ratings up, and they still ended the show. He delivered what he thought was the target in terms of ratings and costs, and it still wasn't good enough. IF someone gives me a really tough goal, I meet it, and they tell me I'm losing my job cause that is not good enough - I'm pissed.

So it irks me greatly that Joss was taken by some huge surprise. Why? They barely squeaked by to get this one.

I agree, but I also can't really imagine Joss NOT being surprised. He just doesn't seem to think that way.