I wonder if Spike falls into the tiny blond(e) category of which Angel is so fond.

Just that one time...

Paging Plei, PMM to the white courtesy phone ...

I'll Nilly it...

I think the first real change was "I wanna hear you scream" ... "You never will."

That may be the first real change, but before that, we learned there was more to Wesley than met the eye in "I've Got You Under My Skin," with his random bad-dad memory, and there's also his badass moment in "The Ring," where he sticks the guy's hand into the freaking wall.

I just don't think it's appropriate to let professional disappointment (a meta-issue if there ever was one) dictate onscreen events.

See, this reads to me like Joss is trying to warn viewers not to expect hugs and puppies with a side of frog bashing. If season 5 has always been meant to end this way (and there was discussion Weds. about how this may have been the plan for the end of season 6, had there been one, and season 5 would have ended with Angel joining the black hand - my guess is the scene in the teaser of POWER PLAY might have been meant as the last scene in season 5; they may have prepped for both eventualities since they've been a bit of a bubble show for a while now), and they got a season 6, I think he would have said something different, but still gave some warning.

Why not for Lindsey, then?

Angel's given Lindsey two chances already (BLIND DATE and DEAD END), and both times Lindsey's basically pissed all over Angel for it.

Why not for Lindsey, then?

Because he's given Lindsey so many chances, and Lindsey keeps turning around and stabbing him in the back. Or whatever.

Wes moments tracking, S1 only, but written in S4

post-Salvage look at 5x5

Heh, funny x-post.

That may be the first real change, but before that, we learned there was more to Wesley than met the eye in "I've Got You Under My Skin," with his random bad-dad memory, and there's also his badass moment in "The Ring," where he sticks the guy's hand into the freaking wall.

I'd also put a lot of weight on being able to take Angel down in "Epiphany", and Angel's acknowledgement of it.

I'd also put a lot of weight on being able to take Angel down in "Epiphany", and Angel's acknowledgement of it.

That's "Eternity," but yeah.

If season 5 has always been meant to end this way (and there was discussion Weds. about how this may have been the plan for the end of season 6, had there been one, and season 5 would have ended with Angel joining the black hand - my guess is the scene in the teaser of POWER PLAY might have been meant as the last scene in season 5; they may have prepped for both eventualities since they've been a bit of a bubble show for a while now), and they got a season 6, I think he would have said something different, but still gave some warning.

From this article:

Here's a one-line summary for Season 6 of "Angel," courtesy of series co-creator Joss Whedon:

"If you buck the system and do your best to make it collapse, what if it does?"

So S5 must've been meant to end with some kind of a collapse all along (though presumably not so much with the EVERYBODY DIES!)

I don't get the part where the WB is a bunch of asswipes. 5 years is a huge long time in teevee. Huge. THIS season was the bonus season. They barely got this season, and in order to do so, had to lay people off and cut production values.

So it irks me greatly that Joss was taken by some huge surprise. Why? They barely squeaked by to get this one.

Also - I think people are missing a point here. A lot of the fan wanking is not to argue that this is how it would go, but that the point is the ending is unresolved We've outline a bunch of scenarios where everybody lives; we could even more easily do a lot of variations on how everyone dies. And everything in between - where some live and some die.

And that is the essence of the ending. The fight contiues - what happens next is unresolved. By not telling any one story it tells all the stories.