Whew, I was afraid the Tues. replay would be at the usual time and interfere with the season finale of 24, but it's at 8 accroding to the WB web site. Yay!

On the outrage at the WB front, author Peter David calls the "Your friends at the WB" bit "the most horrifying moment of the evening" on his blog.

His take on the ending pretty much sums up my feelings, although I liked CHOSEN better than he did and I'm not sure there were NO contrivances to get to where NOT FADE AWAY did:

Personally, I loved it.

Why? Because it wasn't an ending. Why is that good? Because it was a true ending. It was true because the fight against evil has no ending. "Angel," particularly in its last season, has been a series about ambiguities, about gray areas. The fact that there was no clear cut conclusion means that the series ended in a way that was thematically consistent. And that was a nervy, incredibly gutsy way to go. Gutsy because it was 100% guaranteed to piss off a lot of fans who wanted to see if Shonshu was fulfilled, who wanted to see how (not if) Angel triumphed over the Senior Partners. The final episode of BtVS bent over backwards to have a tidy ending, and the incredible plot contrivances in order to accomplish that were painfully obvious. "Angel" made no such compromises. Whether Angel and the gang win or lose is almost less important than that they fought knowing that the fight itself is what mattered.

I would have been disappointed—maybe even offended—had there been a final battle that included a conclusion. I'm not even ready to consider that there might be an army of slayers coming to their rescue, or all the other saves I've seen people offer here in the spirit of speculation. I feel like I did at the end of The Gift. I need this story to be true (and to be it) for a while. Angel and company did the best they could, and some died, and others are dying, and they're all probably going to die, not because they want to, but because they have to fight this particular fight. Angelus's words as he approached Acathla are running through my brain right now, too--the bit about every moment in his life leading him there...

I'm working on a similarly-themed post in my lj, but am having trouble getting it where I want it to go.

Now if someone could figure out a way to wank Wesley back to life, I'd be happy.

Wesley's dead, and I think it's where he really wants to be.

But that's not where I want him to be.

Maria = me... ITA that this is how Wesley's story ends, and it was a good ending, just heartbreaking, yadda yadda yadda, but I don't want him to be dead, I want him to be fighting alondside the others in that last big battle!

So maybe he wasn't really dead when Illyria stood up to punch Vail (only a little dead!) and, you know, before she teleports Buffy and the other slayers in, Willow teleports to Wesley to heal him? Hey, it's not perfect, but it's a starting point...

Heh. I'm actually very, very intrigued by his theories regarding the Smallville finale, though.

Yeah! I don't think I've actually seen a good discussion of Smallville beside here (and even our critical faculties have slacked since s.1)-- not that I've looked-- so it was very interesting.

t /OT

Cindy, it's interesting - on one hand, I'm completely with you - that this was the ideal way to end a show that was all about continuing the fight. I'm glad they didn't show the battle ending, who survived, who didn't. That this story is true, that they did all they could, went out fighting. Because it is the story, and a lovely way to end it.

But at the same time, part of my brain simply cannot leave well enough alone and has to fix everything that's left hanging! It just keeps humming along, wondering about what happens next. It might be from fic overdose or from denial of this being The End. I dunno.

Or maybe it's that even though the last scene showed Our Heroes charging into the final battle that they could not survive, it somehow left me with hope. Angel swung his sword, the screen went to black, and I just smiled - this is the final message, in actions not words, that we just keep fighting.

but I don't want him to be dead, I want him to be fighting alondside the others in that last big battle!

But he made the battle possible. I saw someone (somewhere else) expressing disappointment that Wes didn't even get to kill his assigned target--Vail. Illyria made the kill. I am finding myself thrilled by a lot of the things that seem to be disappointing others.

To me, that Wes didn't even get to kill Vail is a great example of what I loved about this finale, and why I think the finale absolutely fit the series (as a single piece). No, he didn't get to kill Vail, but if he hadn't faced Vail, Vail probably would not have been killed. Illyria went there because Wes was there. Illyria went to help Wes, because Wes loved/s Fred. Fred died, and Illyria was reincarnated, because the gang was becoming corrupted. The gang was being corrupted because Angel had to save Connor. Angel had to save Connor because... well you know. I hate to keep hashing on "if nothing that we do matters, all that matters is what we do," but yeah. That. Everyone mattered to the final battle, and even the outcome of the battle doesn't matter as much as that they are going to battle.

`I would not have been as brutal about the ending had we had another season.'"

Am I the only one who thinks that's a childish attitude? I know not to take what Joss says too seriously, but c'mon. Cancellation. Happens. It sucks and I'm sorry it happens, but a)five seasons is a good run (not enough, of course, but in absolute terms it's a success) and b)even if he does feel the network screwed him over, that's not really something to take out on the fans. We didn't do anything wrong.

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Well, you can also read it as, "I meant for more characters to make it out alive for another season, during which they might have met their tragic and noble deaths then or in a later series finale, but since there won't be another season, I have to kill them now."

I think it's pretty typical for artists to channel their feelings into art.

But I also don't really care about the circumstances of production; I care about the art produced, and whether the art works for me is more important than what the artist thinks about it. In many ways, the artist is a lot less real to me than the artwork. The artwork I know; the artist is a stranger.

On another tangent, I kind of see Lorne going off and tending bar in a rundown reincarnation of Casablanca/Caritas, when one day a bunch of Slayers walks in, ready for some R&R after offing some demons ... and, you know, that's it. That's the story. Because he's broken, and he's not going to rejoin the fight.

The final episode of BtVS bent over backwards to have a tidy ending, and the incredible plot contrivances in order to accomplish that were painfully obvious. "Angel" made no such compromises. Whether Angel and the gang win or lose is almost less important than that they fought knowing that the fight itself is what mattered.

You know, I disliked the finale when I watched in on Wed. night because I still couldn't see why Angel was bringing about this apocalypse. But after talking to some of my friends and family members (who all loved it) and reading the posts on this board and then watching it again - it finally all clicked in my mind last night.

When Angel gave that speech to Connor in Deep Down about heroes living the way the world should be, he believed it, but TPTB spent the rest of 4th season taking everything away from Angel and then having him be the instrument for returning the world to the status quo. After the misery and failure of season four, it made perfect sense that he believed that working for an evil corporation (working in the system, using the system's power) was now the only way to affect change.

But then, starting with You're Welcome, and especially in Underneath, I think he realized that not only has he been playing their game since he took over W&H, but maybe he's been playing it all along. If he just walked away from W&H and went back to Angel Investigations he'd still be accepting the world on their terms. (It ties in to what Connor said in Peace Out about Angel liking the Harshness and Cruelty because it gives him purpose.)

I'm actually sort of loving the fact that Angel finally decided to change how the battle is fought and maybe go out in a blaze of glory. He brought what was underneath right to the surface and was no longer accepting the way the world works.