but I don't want him to be dead, I want him to be fighting alondside the others in that last big battle!

But he made the battle possible. I saw someone (somewhere else) expressing disappointment that Wes didn't even get to kill his assigned target--Vail. Illyria made the kill. I am finding myself thrilled by a lot of the things that seem to be disappointing others.

To me, that Wes didn't even get to kill Vail is a great example of what I loved about this finale, and why I think the finale absolutely fit the series (as a single piece). No, he didn't get to kill Vail, but if he hadn't faced Vail, Vail probably would not have been killed. Illyria went there because Wes was there. Illyria went to help Wes, because Wes loved/s Fred. Fred died, and Illyria was reincarnated, because the gang was becoming corrupted. The gang was being corrupted because Angel had to save Connor. Angel had to save Connor because... well you know. I hate to keep hashing on "if nothing that we do matters, all that matters is what we do," but yeah. That. Everyone mattered to the final battle, and even the outcome of the battle doesn't matter as much as that they are going to battle.

`I would not have been as brutal about the ending had we had another season.'"

Am I the only one who thinks that's a childish attitude? I know not to take what Joss says too seriously, but c'mon. Cancellation. Happens. It sucks and I'm sorry it happens, but a)five seasons is a good run (not enough, of course, but in absolute terms it's a success) and b)even if he does feel the network screwed him over, that's not really something to take out on the fans. We didn't do anything wrong.

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Well, you can also read it as, "I meant for more characters to make it out alive for another season, during which they might have met their tragic and noble deaths then or in a later series finale, but since there won't be another season, I have to kill them now."

I think it's pretty typical for artists to channel their feelings into art.

But I also don't really care about the circumstances of production; I care about the art produced, and whether the art works for me is more important than what the artist thinks about it. In many ways, the artist is a lot less real to me than the artwork. The artwork I know; the artist is a stranger.

On another tangent, I kind of see Lorne going off and tending bar in a rundown reincarnation of Casablanca/Caritas, when one day a bunch of Slayers walks in, ready for some R&R after offing some demons ... and, you know, that's it. That's the story. Because he's broken, and he's not going to rejoin the fight.

The final episode of BtVS bent over backwards to have a tidy ending, and the incredible plot contrivances in order to accomplish that were painfully obvious. "Angel" made no such compromises. Whether Angel and the gang win or lose is almost less important than that they fought knowing that the fight itself is what mattered.

You know, I disliked the finale when I watched in on Wed. night because I still couldn't see why Angel was bringing about this apocalypse. But after talking to some of my friends and family members (who all loved it) and reading the posts on this board and then watching it again - it finally all clicked in my mind last night.

When Angel gave that speech to Connor in Deep Down about heroes living the way the world should be, he believed it, but TPTB spent the rest of 4th season taking everything away from Angel and then having him be the instrument for returning the world to the status quo. After the misery and failure of season four, it made perfect sense that he believed that working for an evil corporation (working in the system, using the system's power) was now the only way to affect change.

But then, starting with You're Welcome, and especially in Underneath, I think he realized that not only has he been playing their game since he took over W&H, but maybe he's been playing it all along. If he just walked away from W&H and went back to Angel Investigations he'd still be accepting the world on their terms. (It ties in to what Connor said in Peace Out about Angel liking the Harshness and Cruelty because it gives him purpose.)

I'm actually sort of loving the fact that Angel finally decided to change how the battle is fought and maybe go out in a blaze of glory. He brought what was underneath right to the surface and was no longer accepting the way the world works.

but since there won't be another season, I have to kill them now."

But coupled with the sentences about their disappointment over the cancellation making it into the finale, it reads more as "I HAD an uplifting finale planned, but I only got 110 episodes instead of 132, so therefore I'm gonna kill everyone to reflect how pissed off I am."

I mean, dude. He has every right to kill everyone if he wants to, and I'm not overly unhappy with the end of "Not Fade Away." I just don't think it's appropriate to let professional disappointment (a meta-issue if there ever was one) dictate onscreen events. The network doesn't care, so it only hurts the fans.

(I'm not saying I think fans "deserved" a happy ending, just that I dislike the "we gave you a downbeat ending because we were canceled" concept. If he'd kept his mouth shut, I wouldn't care.)

LJ, where's that brutal quote from? Because, without context, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Meta-issues dictate onscreen events all the time, and I don't see where the fans got hurt anyway.

If he just walked away from W&H and went back to Angel Investigations he'd still be accepting the world on their terms.

Should Anne go out, buy an Uzi, and go on a Bad Guys Of The Neighborhood-killing rampage?

But coupled with the sentences about their disappointment over the cancellation making it into the finale, it reads more as "I HAD an uplifting finale planned, but I only got 110 episodes instead of 132, so therefore I'm gonna kill everyone to reflect how pissed off I am."

But where are you getting that there was ever going to be an uplifting ending? S5 was always supposed to end this way -- with the MoG killing the Black Thorn and bringing down the wrath of the Senior Partners.

Should Anne go out, buy an Uzi, and go on a Bad Guys Of The Neighborhood-killing rampage?

Yes.