You got all kinds of learnin' and you made me look the fool without tryin', and yet here I am with a gun to your head. That's 'cause I got people with me. People who trust each other, who do for each other, and ain't always lookin' for the advantage.

Mal ,'Our Mrs. Reynolds'


Lovesick, my Ass!  

[NAFDA] Discussion of all Wonderfalls episodes, including the unaired ones. When discussing Wonderfalls, anything goes. Safe-words and white fonting are not needed. Spoilers for other shows are verboten. Posts with offers to buy, sell, or trade copies of episodes will be deleted.


§ ita § - May 04, 2004 12:38:47 pm PDT #298 of 668
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Is spiritualism, or mysticism bad?

It's the stereotyping that's the issue. What %age of mystical white people do you see? Compared to Indian? Not saying there can never be another one, but I do think the urge to use any given cliché should be carefully examined, and the spotlight is on the user.

Probably would have been best to avoided the area totally.

Yeah. I can see generally and simply what'd need to be done to please me, but then you get into the "playing with sacred" stuff that'll piss a bunch of other people off.


Topic!Cindy - May 04, 2004 12:43:40 pm PDT #299 of 668
What is even happening?

It's the stereotyping that's the issue. What %age of mystical white people do you see? Compared to Indian? Not saying there can never be another one, but I do think the urge to use any given cliché should be carefully examined, and the spotlight is on the user.

Okay, that's what I thought. In the case of this episode of Wonderfalls, you can count two mystical Indians to one mystical white woman. And one mystical Indian was dead before the other became mystical. It's a show where an Anglo is the focus of this big, mystical plot.


Tim Minear - May 04, 2004 12:43:48 pm PDT #300 of 668
"Don' be e-scared"

Tim -- I like reading how you stripped off the flesh to get to the skeleton. And I like the skeleton and see it as important.

As I pointed out even about the snowy owl, I know precious little about the facts used in the story (except the totem, which as noted, is also in the script). If they turn out to be correct, then I stand corrected.

Allyson asked me what I was defending, the story or my vision of it. Which is a great question. Kind of both. When I said that I’m not dismissive of opinions here, I really meant that. If people like Kat and Allyson and Ita bristled, then there was something which merited bristling. I believe that. I thought it would be interesting and instructive to let you in a little on the process of doing something like this. How production realities, narrative need and concerns about sensitivities all wrestle with each other.


Tim Minear - May 04, 2004 12:45:44 pm PDT #301 of 668
"Don' be e-scared"

I do think the urge to use any given cliché should be carefully examined, and the spotlight is on the user.

Point taken.


Tim Minear - May 04, 2004 12:48:46 pm PDT #302 of 668
"Don' be e-scared"

Are there pretty racist stereotypes?

No.


§ ita § - May 04, 2004 12:50:38 pm PDT #303 of 668
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

In the case of this episode of Wonderfalls, you can count two mystical Indians to one mystical white woman. And one mystical Indian was dead before the other became mystical.

So, mystical Indians outnumber mystical white people 2:1, yet white people on Wonderfalls outnumber Indians by how many?

Basically, if white people's religion gets to be true, you're walking a dangerous path. You could end up being Touched by An Angel.

Indigenous people get to have real religions all the time. How lucky.

How production realities, narrative need and concerns about sensitivities all wrestle with each other.

See, eager as I am to blame everything always on the writer, I guess it's not precisely fair.

But if I give the writers all the credit, does it balance it out?


Tim Minear - May 04, 2004 12:52:54 pm PDT #304 of 668
"Don' be e-scared"

But if I give the writers all the credit, does it balance it out?

Rule of thumb? If you liked it, me. If you didn't, not my fault.


Allyson - May 04, 2004 1:02:04 pm PDT #305 of 668
Wait, is this real-world child support, where the money goes to buy food for the kids, or MRA fantasyland child support where the women just buy Ferraris and cocaine? -Jessica

Rule of thumb? If you liked it, me. If you didn't, not my fault.

I want to take Tim's ego home and give it a blanket, a dish of kibble, and a fuzzy chew toy.


Kat - May 04, 2004 1:05:12 pm PDT #306 of 668
"I keep to a strict diet of ill-advised enthusiasm and heartfelt regret." Leigh Bardugo

If people like Kat and Allyson and Ita bristled, then there was something which merited bristling.

I bristle a lot. So maybe I'm not such a good judge of merited bristling.

I believe that. I thought it would be interesting and instructive to let you in a little on the process of doing something like this. How production realities, narrative need and concerns about sensitivities all wrestle with each other.

I like the process. To me, your explanation gets a shrug and a "Huh." (and not my usual dismissive one, but a henh, interesting, I can see that sort of thing). In much the same way that your explanation of why the flamingoes gave advice that worked counter to all of the other advice and if Jaye had followed it would have meant a missed diagnosis of Dad.

In clearer terms, I'm always more willing to buy fallibility and a story constraint over a heated defense.

I still feel sort of bristley, but also, I'm eating chocolate pudding while sitting on an ice pack contemplating my 4 Month break, so feeling too happy to belabor my point.


§ ita § - May 04, 2004 1:43:39 pm PDT #307 of 668
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Rule of thumb? If you liked it, me. If you didn't, not my fault.

So far so good, then.