Allyson did you ever watch Northern Exposure? If so, did it bug there, too? I'm starting to think I have given too much credit to WF (and NE) (also ashamedly and admittedly, it's not a trope I've spent time thinking about before now). I think cut some writers/shows too much trope-slack.

I thought it was several months back that the "Are you there Tim?" line debuted.

Yeah. There was, like, a sneak peek right around the start of the new year. We kinda fell in love at that point.

Cindy, I watched Northern Exposure periodically. I don't remember it bugging (or a ton about the show), but I think that's my faulty memory. In fact, I'm trying to remember if it was Marianne (was that her name) that was the closest to the mystic.

and really, she had other tropes going on (savvy nurse to a doctor who knows medicine but is othewise clueless).

In fact, I'm trying to remember if it was Marianne (was that her name) that was the closest to the mystic.

Gah, I can't even remember who Marianne was, Kat. Was she the main Native American female? (Might have been Marilyn, but I can't remember.) I do think the Native American woman was a mystic, but everyone on NE (to my memory) seemed to have mystical encounters, and I think a few people were prescient when it served the story. For characters, I mostly remember Ed, Ruth, Chris, Joel, Maggie, and that might be it. I remember (was it Holling...Holland?--the old guy married to the very pretty young blond woman).

My memory-impression of NE is that it was probably self-aware enough, that any tropes would have been used well. But now I'm all suspicious of myself and my blindness to this one. I wonder about the roots of this mystical trope. I wonder if it was originally developed with the intention of counter-acting the savage trope. It has that patronizing air about it, doesn't it?

I died when I got the Peter Pan (Walt Disney) video for my children, and the What-Makes-The-Red-Man-Red creature, that barely looked human came on the screen. Luckily Ben's 1st grade teacher taught via themes. Throughout the year, they had a Medieval theme, a theme on China, a Native American theme, and an Oceans and Islands theme (every lesson in any subject tied back into their theme). The Native one was fantastic, and he was very receptive to my explanation about what was wrong with Peter Pan's portrayal of "Indians." "No! Mommy. 'Native Americans' is the correct term.'"

Eck. It's too bad about this. One of my major buttons. (ref: edited blow-up at Out-fucking-idiots-Kast). But I'm reacting to reactions and not to first-hand materials, so...

Anyway, do we know who the actors of the Native American characters were?

I don't know about this Outkast thing. What happened, Liese?

Oh, they did a little number at the Grammy's where they opened up with the Navajo Beauty Way song, then went into their own piece, dressed in (green) very badly stereotypical "Indian" outfits with very badly stereotypical dance moves in front of a very badly stereotypical teepee set. It was ridiculous. Sent me into a blazing rage. And was clearly set-dressed and rehearsed in advance, so CBS (it was CBS, right?) knew about it and condoned it. Various tribal authorities complained about it mightily, but it had far less fallout than Janet's nipple shield.

I may regret posting this, but I feel the need to share my opinion on the matter. Yes, I said my opinion so no one needs to agree with me if they don't want to. I think people, in general, have become overly sensitive about almost everything. Unfortunately, some people don't understand certain things are sacred to certain people, and they should not be made light of. This being said, I also feel that people need to realize that not everyone understands this and that they should be able to (in a way) laugh at themselves for their practices that seem odd to others. As a member of a religion that is often-times stereotyped and made light of, I can do this for myself. People are too quick to judge in this country. Yes, an awareness is needed, but if you can't laugh at yourselves, who can you laugh at? The OutKast thing was a shame and they should have known better. "Totem Mole" may have gone too far - I had thoughts of people disapproving of it, but still enjoyed it.

PC comments deleted since apparently they were way of topic from the current conversation

We're not talking about being politically correct. We're taking about being correct.

Yes, I said my opinion so no one needs to agree with me if they don't want to.

Oh good. Thanks for your permission to disagree. Because I do.

I think people, in general, have become overly sensitive about almost everything.

I agree that some people are oversensitive. But I also agree that some groups of people are hugely insensitive. I mean, cmon, with how hard is it to get basic things right like, teepees and wigwams not being in the northeast? Or that peyote is used mostlywith southwest tribes?

I also feel that people need to realize that not everyone understands this and that they should be able to (in a way) laugh at themselves for their practices that seem odd to others.

Except what happens when They Get It Wrong. When the issue is not only that they are making fun of what is sacred (oh those silly Catholics with their catechism aerobics, sit-stand-kneel-stand-sit!) but that it's wrong (oh those silly Catholics with all of their praying facing East and daily ablutions after using the bathroom!).

Also, sacred, inherently unfunny to most people. But that's a separate discussion and one we won't agree to. I would note that by definition, sacred generally implies stuff someone values greatly, not stuff someone is willing to be misrepresented as a joke on Fox.

I think the thing that kills me is how wrong they got things. Cause, honestly, folks, google should be your friend. It's not that there isn't a lot of info about native groups. Hell, I could send My Scholastic Encyclopedia of the North American Indians ($5.99 and geared to 4th graders) and it would have covered the basics about totems, peyote, headdresses, teepees, etc.