We're not talking about being politically correct. We're taking about being correct.

Yes, I said my opinion so no one needs to agree with me if they don't want to.

Oh good. Thanks for your permission to disagree. Because I do.

I think people, in general, have become overly sensitive about almost everything.

I agree that some people are oversensitive. But I also agree that some groups of people are hugely insensitive. I mean, cmon, with how hard is it to get basic things right like, teepees and wigwams not being in the northeast? Or that peyote is used mostlywith southwest tribes?

I also feel that people need to realize that not everyone understands this and that they should be able to (in a way) laugh at themselves for their practices that seem odd to others.

Except what happens when They Get It Wrong. When the issue is not only that they are making fun of what is sacred (oh those silly Catholics with their catechism aerobics, sit-stand-kneel-stand-sit!) but that it's wrong (oh those silly Catholics with all of their praying facing East and daily ablutions after using the bathroom!).

Also, sacred, inherently unfunny to most people. But that's a separate discussion and one we won't agree to. I would note that by definition, sacred generally implies stuff someone values greatly, not stuff someone is willing to be misrepresented as a joke on Fox.

I think the thing that kills me is how wrong they got things. Cause, honestly, folks, google should be your friend. It's not that there isn't a lot of info about native groups. Hell, I could send My Scholastic Encyclopedia of the North American Indians ($5.99 and geared to 4th graders) and it would have covered the basics about totems, peyote, headdresses, teepees, etc.

I think where it all goes awry is the assumption that All Native Americans Do This. It's like having shrimp on the barbie and vegimite as a stereotypical symbol for the French. I mean, they're all White, people, right?

That's the stuff that puts my back up, especially where points were made against stereotyping and offensive charactures within the episode.

It took me out of the story.

The mystical indian is so pervasive in storytelling. If there's an Indian, they're going to be having a spirit quest and talking to a coyote about the rape of mother earth.

It'd be like always having a Jewish character being a cheap accountant, or a Black character eating a watermellon and getting gold caps on their teeth.

In a satire, it's funny. Blazing Saddles funny.

This wasn't a satire, though.

I have real thoughts on the episode not having anything to do with the above, which I'd like to post, when I get home and have some supper.

There were so many interesting things going on about spirtuality, and the perceptions of it, that I feel were overshadowed by the clunky mistakes.

There were so many interesting things going on about spirtuality, and the perceptions of it, that I feel were overshadowed by the clunky mistakes.

See the clunky mistakes couldn't allow me to get into the story to think about anything else. I was way busy sputtering.

Okay, now I'm glad I posted because my eyes have been opened to some big issues. I'll admit that I'm completely clueless about "apparently" basic Native American history (My knowledge doesn't extend much past Disney getting Pocahontas completely wrong and then using Canadian landscape as their model instead of the actual location of Virginia). So here I am, teach me.

Also, sacred, inherently unfunny to most people

I do actually agree with you, but people have to understand it is sacred. That is what I'm trying to say. I know a lot about sacred things not being understood and still being made light of. I'm not Catholic, I'm Mormon. People get a lot wrong about my religion. I'm not giving them permission too, I'd rather them learn about the religion before poking fun at it, but I'm willing to let things somewhat slide. They don't understand, you can't make them, but you can try to enlighten them. It's not worth getting in an unfriendly debate over. So I guess people need to be both more sensitive and less insensitive so we can meet on happy ground.

Here's the thing about "Totem Mole": They used a non-existant tribe, combined a bunch of things from various tribes (not caring about geographical location) and tried tomake it work. Some people are unknowledgeable enough that it may not bother them. I'm glad you are knowledgeable enough to teach those of us that aren't.

edited to add "less" before insensitive.

can some explain this to me, please. The Totem Mole says, "Show Him Who's Special" ... who is that referring to? in the end wasn't it Deanna Littlefoot...

Mahandra applying for citizenship and denied partly because of Sharon wanted to buy 2 cases of cigarettes... funny

The she can be Littlefoot, and the he Bill (was that the other guy's name) with no problem.

Totem Mole could have done something interesting with the stereotype, and it almost did. After all, her spiritual revelation involved casinos, which I thought hysterical. But it's pretty much muttered under the episode's breath.

I still thought the episode was a great read, script-wise. I was blind to about half the problems until I read them here. It still loaded me up with that WANT MORE feeling.

Do you (general, as in y'all) find you're more tolerant of a stereotype/trope, when it is used by someone you respect? In this case, I don't know the writers, but I think I give them some cred (and maybe underservedly, that's what I'm trying to get at) because Tim is on the team. I know I gave M.E. more credit with the scenario revolving around the death of Tara, than I would have given to random-writer/producers. I also know I have a different tolerance for something that makes me cringe because it's cheesy, than something that makes me cringe because it's mean/harmful.

To me, the teepee/wigwam use (which either I missed, or it wasn't specified in the script, but I probably just missed it) is more evidence of sloppy research, than uncomfortable stereotyping, probably because, as fairlite2u (sp?) mentioned, they created a fictional tribe.

I don't give anyone a break. Crap is crap. Gold is gold. Doesn't matter whose name appears in the credit, that.

I don't think Tim is some racist FUCKO, in fact, I know he isn't.

I thought he was a sexist FUCKO, once, but that's all straightened out, now. He's not. I still think he's the puddin' pop o' love.

I don't give anyone a break. Crap is crap. Gold is gold. Doesn't matter whose name appears in the credit, that.

Yeah. I didn't mean so much on the crap to gold scale as far as quality is concerned, only where stereotyping is concerned.

I don't think Tim is some racist FUCKO, in fact, I know he isn't.

This. Since you know he's not a racist FUCKO, are you less angry than you would have been, if Tim wasn't involved with this project?

I thought he was a sexist FUCKO, once, but that's all straightened out, now. He's not. I still think he's the puddin' pop o' love.

Billy?