I think where it all goes awry is the assumption that All Native Americans Do This. It's like having shrimp on the barbie and vegimite as a stereotypical symbol for the French. I mean, they're all White, people, right?

That's the stuff that puts my back up, especially where points were made against stereotyping and offensive charactures within the episode.

It took me out of the story.

The mystical indian is so pervasive in storytelling. If there's an Indian, they're going to be having a spirit quest and talking to a coyote about the rape of mother earth.

It'd be like always having a Jewish character being a cheap accountant, or a Black character eating a watermellon and getting gold caps on their teeth.

In a satire, it's funny. Blazing Saddles funny.

This wasn't a satire, though.

I have real thoughts on the episode not having anything to do with the above, which I'd like to post, when I get home and have some supper.

There were so many interesting things going on about spirtuality, and the perceptions of it, that I feel were overshadowed by the clunky mistakes.

There were so many interesting things going on about spirtuality, and the perceptions of it, that I feel were overshadowed by the clunky mistakes.

See the clunky mistakes couldn't allow me to get into the story to think about anything else. I was way busy sputtering.

Okay, now I'm glad I posted because my eyes have been opened to some big issues. I'll admit that I'm completely clueless about "apparently" basic Native American history (My knowledge doesn't extend much past Disney getting Pocahontas completely wrong and then using Canadian landscape as their model instead of the actual location of Virginia). So here I am, teach me.

Also, sacred, inherently unfunny to most people

I do actually agree with you, but people have to understand it is sacred. That is what I'm trying to say. I know a lot about sacred things not being understood and still being made light of. I'm not Catholic, I'm Mormon. People get a lot wrong about my religion. I'm not giving them permission too, I'd rather them learn about the religion before poking fun at it, but I'm willing to let things somewhat slide. They don't understand, you can't make them, but you can try to enlighten them. It's not worth getting in an unfriendly debate over. So I guess people need to be both more sensitive and less insensitive so we can meet on happy ground.

Here's the thing about "Totem Mole": They used a non-existant tribe, combined a bunch of things from various tribes (not caring about geographical location) and tried tomake it work. Some people are unknowledgeable enough that it may not bother them. I'm glad you are knowledgeable enough to teach those of us that aren't.

edited to add "less" before insensitive.

can some explain this to me, please. The Totem Mole says, "Show Him Who's Special" ... who is that referring to? in the end wasn't it Deanna Littlefoot...

Mahandra applying for citizenship and denied partly because of Sharon wanted to buy 2 cases of cigarettes... funny

The she can be Littlefoot, and the he Bill (was that the other guy's name) with no problem.

Totem Mole could have done something interesting with the stereotype, and it almost did. After all, her spiritual revelation involved casinos, which I thought hysterical. But it's pretty much muttered under the episode's breath.

I still thought the episode was a great read, script-wise. I was blind to about half the problems until I read them here. It still loaded me up with that WANT MORE feeling.

Do you (general, as in y'all) find you're more tolerant of a stereotype/trope, when it is used by someone you respect? In this case, I don't know the writers, but I think I give them some cred (and maybe underservedly, that's what I'm trying to get at) because Tim is on the team. I know I gave M.E. more credit with the scenario revolving around the death of Tara, than I would have given to random-writer/producers. I also know I have a different tolerance for something that makes me cringe because it's cheesy, than something that makes me cringe because it's mean/harmful.

To me, the teepee/wigwam use (which either I missed, or it wasn't specified in the script, but I probably just missed it) is more evidence of sloppy research, than uncomfortable stereotyping, probably because, as fairlite2u (sp?) mentioned, they created a fictional tribe.

I don't give anyone a break. Crap is crap. Gold is gold. Doesn't matter whose name appears in the credit, that.

I don't think Tim is some racist FUCKO, in fact, I know he isn't.

I thought he was a sexist FUCKO, once, but that's all straightened out, now. He's not. I still think he's the puddin' pop o' love.

I don't give anyone a break. Crap is crap. Gold is gold. Doesn't matter whose name appears in the credit, that.

Yeah. I didn't mean so much on the crap to gold scale as far as quality is concerned, only where stereotyping is concerned.

I don't think Tim is some racist FUCKO, in fact, I know he isn't.

This. Since you know he's not a racist FUCKO, are you less angry than you would have been, if Tim wasn't involved with this project?

I thought he was a sexist FUCKO, once, but that's all straightened out, now. He's not. I still think he's the puddin' pop o' love.

Billy?

Do you (general, as in y'all) find you're more tolerant of a stereotype/trope, when it is used by someone you respect?

Nope. Watching people I know and love descend to stereotypes to portray Jamaicans made me want to kill them all with lots of flensing. Because there's disappointment too.

This. Since you know he's not a racist FUCKO, are you less angry than you would have been, if Tim wasn't involved with this project?

No. I'm disappointed, not angry about it.