Yes, in the past I'm sure the final proposal changed through discussion in lightbulbs.

Fwiw, my two cents is that--apart from the non-fiction bucket thread--I would prefer to have single show threads in the "TV" folder so that we can follow whatever shows we want to follow and be spoiled for whichever we choose to be spoiled for at whatever pace that we are able. If that ain't gonna happen, as I suspect is that case, then Natter whitefont is my preference.

I've already given up on discussing anything but non-fiction in b.org, but I don't want to be complicit in my silence.

Catching up, so if I'm repeating things, I'm sorry.

I also don't like the impact that I felt they had on Natter and the board as a whole. That part for me is not so fine.

I really want to hear more about this. I didn't particularly notice any real change in Natter, etc., but I won't say I was paying much attention to where I was then. All of which is to say, I wasn't aware of any particular change. So arguing for the threads is easier for me - where and what differences am I not seeing? I'm not cool with upending Natter or board tone etc. if we don't have to.

[And now I feel like I'm all "PROVE YOURSELF TO ME" which I don't mean at all. Just, I'm not getting it, and I want to understand better.]

For the people who stopped talking about television in Natter, there were just as many who picked up talking about television in the experimentals. Not to mention the occasional robust, 50-post discussion on a particularly strong episode of a show. That is something that I don't think would fly in Natter, not in the same way.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

Regarding proposals, you can end up with anything you want as the final voting proposal, basically. But I'd strongly prefer and suggest taking these thing separately. Do we have a stompy to open Lightbulbs for the proposal on the table?

I noticed a big difference in Natter. I liked the difference, though. As others have mentioned, with big stretches of white font, it seemed like it was hard to keep up if I read, and I missed things if I didn't, so I really like the tv stuff being in the experimental threads. Also, I found that it was easier for me to keep up with tv stuff of interest when it was clear where to find it.

That said, it did seem like there was more tv talk creeping back into Natter before the experimentals closed, which I saw as a good sign that people were starting to feel comfortable talking where they wanted, and that shooing had pretty much gone away. I'm not sure if that's other people's takes, though. It seems maybe not from the discussion here.

I mostly read the drama thread, and while it wasn't super-active, and perhaps not scintillating, I really enjoyed it. Just last night, I was thinking of something that I wanted to go discuss there, and then remembered that I couldn't. I didn't go to Natter instead, both because by the time I had caught up in Natter, I mostly forgot what I wanted to say, and also because it just didn't seem big enough to mention there. Anyway, it seems that it's probably best not to have too many proposals at once, and I agree that it may be more urgent for non-fiction and cable drama, but I really hope that we bring back the drama thread.

I really want to hear more about this.

The lack of TV talk I can participate in bothers me, which is of course personal to me, and not anyone else's issue, but it does color how I view the rest of it. I feel like having so many different TV oriented threads with rules about what is supposed to be discussed where and potentially different rules about whitefont in each of them creates a rigidity that wasn't here before, and which I for one don't like. I don't like that we are essentially segregating TV talk to particular threads, and even further separating them by type of show. I think the absence of TV in Natter makes it more somber than it used to be, because of the absence of squee/groaning about shows.

Most of all though,

That said, it did seem like there was more tv talk creeping back into Natter before the experimentals closed, which I saw as a good sign that people were starting to feel comfortable talking where they wanted, and that shooing had pretty much gone away.

I hope the first part is true, though I am not so sure it is. In any case, the fact that we created threads and operated them in ways where people ever weren't comfortable talking about TV in Natter bothers me. A lot.

Just to chime in with Lee and Kat, although it seems like things are kinda a done deal here, I found the experimentals a big dud from my POV. I missed the tv talk in Natter, and found my viewing schedule effectively locked me out of trying to follow the discussion in the experimentals. I don't think that a thread covering all network Drama or Comedy or whatever actually helps to generate more sustained discussion. It just moves it out of Natter, which isn't a plus IMO.

I'm sorry that it disrupts your sense of the board and the community, Lee.

But, for myself, I felt just as excluded by miles of whitefont in Natter. It's not anything I ever participated in, and I could never hold a conversation in that environment. And it just made Natter a no-fly zone for me until that was over.

Which is fine, Natter can be whatever it wants to be in any particular moment. But there's a flipside to what you preferred.

Which is fine, Natter can be whatever it wants to be in any particular moment.

But that's part of my point. Natter wasn't being whatever it wanted to be, really, because some people weren't comfortable discussing their shows there even though they wanted to.

belated eta (because it took me a while to figure out how to say this in a way that might make sense outside my head)

But, for myself, I felt just as excluded by miles of whitefont in Natter. It's not anything I ever participated in, and I could never hold a conversation in that environment. And it just made Natter a no-fly zone for me until that was over.

I get what you are saying here, and I know Natter and the board can't ever be all things to all people, but to me, there is a difference between situations in which people don't post in Natter for a little while because of the flow of the discussion at that moment and situations in which people don't post something at all because they feel that having the discussion in Natter is against the rules.

I don't mean to be negative, but it seems like that ship has kind of sailed.

Why? I mean, why is that ship any more undockable than any other?

Number me amongst the "can't stop the fire" people. It shifts the board from somewhere I couldn't have detailed show discussion to somewhere I can't have either that or much of the fun casual sort either.

It wasn't perfect for me before. It just looks to be more broken with the changes proposed.