A bucket for reality would save me some scrolling, but I certainly don't see any that would hold up a thread.

TAR, Survivor, Project Runway, Top Chef, ANTM...am I missing any? The trouble is they've all got weirdly short seasons so posting about them tends to happen in bursts. (And they don't lend themselves to deep sustained discussion, regardless, because they are by their nature shallow and fluffy, which works well for Natter.)

Oh, I agree. I do think there would be a little more posting in a bucket thread, but I think it works very well in Natter, and the whitefont poetry is kind of fun. I just wanted to come up with as complete a list as I could of what's in Natter these days anyway.

I feel like the sticky point to bucket threads is not the people who don't watch some of the shows; they can skim. But bucket threads seem to be a problem for people who don't want to hear details for shows that have aired, but that they haven't watched and don't intend to watch for at least several months. And while I have sympathy (as the woman who never sees a movie until it comes to Netflix), I do think that it places a bit of a burden on the rest of the community to try to accommodate that wish.

For me it tends to be that I want to avoid a bucket thread until I have had a chance to watch a show a couple of days after it has aired. I have found it easy to skim over SPN postings and not retain anything that will keep me from enjoying the show if I decide to rent or buy the DVDs, but I sometimes forget to skim past the posts for a show I do watch, like Dresden Files.

The problem with any bucket thread is that some people will lag behind and don't want to be spoiled on other shows.

The advantage of any bucket thread is that it will encourage more cross pollination and is a bit more in keeping with the community as it has existed. That is, it builds some new commonality instead of moving more towards splintering.

The advantage of the single show threads is you don't have to worry about cross spoilage.

The disadvantage is that it moves towards more splintering.

Pluses and minuses on both sides.

How do you want to play it?

Broad general bucket threads? A drama thread?

Buckets put up by proposal, but with the probationary elements?

Buckets and single show threads all done with easy set up, quick pruning?

Damn. You go away for a holiday weekend, you come back to a discussion that's sustained itself well beyond your initial proposal.

I figured we were going to end up discussing the thing we started talking about in the Heroes thread discussion here when I brought up the Premium expansion. Something would have happened and we would have brought this up eventually. I don't think the way we talk about television serves us in the best way, and I think one of the main reasons we are here is to discuss television with people we like. Namely us. So it is a good thing that we're talking this out--though it's not quite what I had wanted for something I thought would pass on a bullshit consensus!

Originally, when I put forth the Premium expansion, it was with the idea that bucket threads are one of the net positives of our community. They bring a lot of people who watch different shows in contact with one another, foster show pimpage (look at all the people who have given SPN a try because of such enthusiastic watchers in Boxed Set!), foster cross-show discussion and multi-show meta talk, keep up a medium posting volume (excepting show nights), and still manage to have continuous discussions about show X while show B is being squeed about. Boxed Set is the best example of this, and Premium is similar but to a lesser degree--smaller pool of shows, smaller group of people in there posting regularly, smaller post volume.

This is not to say single-show threads don't work, because they obviously do. We started with single-show threads, and with shows that have become really popular with our community, they are also a net positive, because they offer focused discussion that is easy to navigate too if you've just caught the show or are a newbie.

But, for me and apparently for a number of other people, bucket threads are attractive and work for the reasons I stated above. And I think that, generally, they are the best option for us as a community because they keep us that quirky, pimptastic, mutual-squee place that we are.

However, I'm not in favor of a "drama" bucket thread, or a "comedy" bucket thread. I think those categories are too large. I think they could sustain discussion, but I don't think could sustain *focused* discussion, which is in part the point of any thread we put together. Like brenda pointed out, there is some other kind of categorization we use that is harder to suss out, but (in my opinion) more worthwhile overall. Something like a procedurals thread would be more in keeping with that idea--there's a distinctive component of those shows that set them apart from the idea of "drama", and I think there's enough cross-watching among the audience that a discussion would be sustained.

I spent the weekend trying to figure out what, exactly, made it so obvious to me that the FX shows I mentioned would fit in with Premium where it was not as obvious to other people. And one of those things was season length. HBO and Showtime shows tend to have short, focused seasons, somewhere between 6 and 13 episodes (generally). The FX shows have been doing the same. Such short, focused, limited seasons are a component of the genre I was trying to establish through "cussin and fuckin" shows. I don't know if that helps any. But I think I would still like to add the FX original dramas to Premium, whatever we decide to do wrt new threads.

Also, I think reality shows sustain themselves fine in Natter; as Jessica said, they are short bursts of fluff that lend themselves to a flurry of "omg" posts and then are rarely talked about again. But shows like Bones and House, Grey's, Numb3rs, Friday Night Lights--those are all shows I think we can and have discussed with more focus and thought in the past and could be sustained in a bucket thread of some kind. (And Psych! It would be great to talk Psych. It doesn't quite fit Boxed Set, 'cause he's only a fake psychic.)

The other thing about Bucket threads that I think are a net positive is that they can mutate and grow with whatever shows come up (continued...)

( continues...) that season (or whenever; the concept of a set fall season has eroded over the last five years) and you never lose that specific thread. Boxed Set saw the additions of The Dresden Files, Blood Ties, etc. this season without any meta consideration, and ideally other Bucket threads would operate the same way. Where does [new show about x who fights crime with y] go? In the procedurals thread! Etc.

And with respect to my fellow Buffistas, while I understand not wanting to be spoiled for a show even by skimming through a bucket thread, I don't think that does much for participation overall. NAFDA has always been a due consideration in all of our threads wrt blackfont. I don't think bucket threads are exempt from that, and since I am in support of bucket threads, I think skimming is a necessary evil in support of community discussion overall.

And, as a final note, while I wouldn't be advserse to the idea of discussing international airing shows in the Unamerican thread (Hustle, anyone? Starting in April!), it would still need to be whitefont because it's only airing in the UK. And that's not really what the show is for anyhow. It would be nice to have a place for blackfont discussion of, okay, of UK shows. But it's something that can fit into other places with whitefont, I think. (Unless other people want one.)

That was a lot to respond to. Whew.

Don't take away my bucket! t /Justine

And with respect to my fellow Buffistas, while I understand not wanting to be spoiled for a show even by skimming through a bucket thread, I don't think that does much for participation overall. NAFDA has always been a due consideration in all of our threads wrt blackfont.

I agree. And there have been many times I have unsubbed from Boxed Set for a few hundred posts because I was behind in one show or another. Then I catch up and either skip or skim and jump back inthread.

If someone is waiting for dvds on a show, unless there is a dvd w&p at some point, that show is not going to be talked about in a time frame that works, as far as I can see.

And maybe I am looking at it wrong but I sort of feel it is like how I never read Harry Potter 6, and eventually I got massively spoiled because the world sort of goes blackfont after something is out there for a while. I knew the risks.

I know, it's not always the easiest community discussion and decision process to have (or retroedit) bucket threads and groupings instead of dedicated show threads, but the cross pollination works, I think.

It has for me. There are many shows that I have only caught at all or given more than a one episode's worth of chance to because of Buffista flailings and meta and just general discussion.

I, personally, like being exposed to all of the different things out there that we watch. The reason I want to talk about shows here as opposed to pretty much anywhere else on the internets is that we are here. And us is good.

I don't know what the answer is... I wish something shone bright and true and workable...

I think starting out with some sort of bucket experiment from now through May might show us which types of show offer enough meat for sustained discussion, and which shows are thread-worthy on their own.

I don't really have a problem with the big buckets. I don't have a problem with single show threads. I don't have a problem with blackfont on shows I haven't seen -- I can scroll by. I don't have a problem with white font -- I can highlight it.

it would still need to be whitefont because it's only airing in the UK

And the US, but your point still stands.

Going back a bit, here's my issue with single-show threads where there are long hiatuses - they don't tend to die down, they tend to devolve into natter. (Even Minearverse, which is sort of a serial single-show thread, frequently becomes the "crafts & soaps" thread when Tim doesn't have a show on the air for a while.) And that's when the community gets splintered -- not when generally participatory Buffistas gather in a separate thread to discuss one show, but during the hiatuses when Show-only-istas stay in that one thread to natter instead of venturing out into the wider world of Buffistadom. When threads have a wider participant base to begin with, the more likely it is that that user base will include a majority of people who participate in more than one thread.

Jessica, I don't want to eclipse your point, but here's some additional thoughts.

So, in an attempt to support the concept of bucket threads better, I've wasted a lot of my "very important" work hours going through the list of currently-airing shows at epguides.com to try and cobble together some idea of what bucket threads could be like. For ease and to keep me from going nuts, I've only included the shows that are on right now, and not shows that have aired in the past; I suspect that, should bucket threads be established, the threads will be self-regulating with regards to both cancelled television and new television. (Maybe that's asking too much, but we've done it before, so here's hoping.) This is a very imperfect design, and it's likely that I've not only left out something, but that we might want something different, or not want something, or whatever.

Procedurals Thread - House, The Unit, Without a Trace, CSI(s), Numb3rs, jericho (?), Bones, The Closer, Cold Case, NCIS, Criminal Minds, Law and Order(s)

Dramedies - Ugly Betty, The Office, Studio 60, Monk, Psych, Grey's, Gilmore Girls, The Boondocks, others(?)

Serious Drama - 24, Friday Night Lights, Prison Break, others(?)

UK TV - Spooks, Hustle, Robin Hood, maybe Doctor Who as it airs in the UK, and keep Doctor Who as it airs in the US in Boxed Set?

caveats: I have almost certainly left out shows people are watching; lines on these shows can be somewhat unclear, ie what I would call a dramedy others would call a sitcom; the same audience isn't there for both FNL and 24 (for example) (though that might not be a problem, really, because we have identified cross-germination as a positive and not something that would hold us back); Procedurals is kind of big and we might want to break it down in some other way; I didn't include sitcom comedies, because I don't think they sustain the kind of focused discussion we are talking about here; and I still want the FX shows in Premium.

er, a lot of caveats. imperfection abounds.