The conversation in Natter moved on, so I'll post here. I've been in meetings all freakin' day, and it's important to me, so...

I was going to respond to Sean's initial post about his feelings about the "Hollywood" thing, because his position sounded weak. He was claiming something about his career as a filmmaker, but he doesn't actually have a career as a filmmaker, so that his post was based on a false assertion about himself, and that bugged me. Then ita posted that her friends who, in fact, do have careers as filmmakers, do not share his feelings, I figured my post was a moot point. Then Sean went apeshit, which I get, because I've gone apeshit and it happens and is hugely embarassing.

And I've been piled upon for it. Which I think is reasonable.

My silence was unacceptable and I was guilty of it mostly because I thought that the pink elephant in the corner was probably feeling a great sense of shame. However, when I go apeshit, my friends will call me on it. Jesse has, ita has, Kristen...and so on. If someone is irresponsibly rude to me, my friends also speak up for me. ita has. I'm ashamed I didn't speak up for ita because I didn't want to be thought of as someone "piling on." Which made it all about me. Me = jerk.

Sean's post, and subsequent "apology" sucked. ita was polite and concise in her response to his first post, and extraordinarily classy about the second post. And again in her follow-up. Which is how ita is. Consistently, methodically fair. Sean's responses were consistently unfair, and distorted. The problem is not ita and how she argues, but Sean and how he's perceiving ita. I would suggest to you, Sean, that you either work out whatever issues you have with your perception of ita, or that you flip the internal MARCIE switch and don't read her. I think that's your loss, because you could gain a great deal of communication/rhetorical skills by reading ita and thinking about how she'd react before you post, because her great strength is in finding the heart of the matter by asking others to clarify and elaborate on a position. When I do that, I make better, stronger arguments and it makes me clearer in everyday conversation. You might have more enjoyable conversations, and at the very least, learn some valuable interviewing skills.

If you think you're in a place where you're going to explode like that again, maybe take it to LJ or some other backchannel where you can blow off steam. I've found this to be greatly helpful where I can get all the poison out of me and deal with things in a more reasonable matter. Doesn't always work, but I've not had an outburst like the one you had in some time.

But it's important for me to say to you, as someone who's been a dick (and will probably be a dick, again), that you are responsible for your reactions. The way you reacted was not ita's fault. It's yours.

He was claiming something about his career as a filmmaker, but he doesn't actually have a career as a filmmaker, so that his post was based on a false assertion about himself, and that bugged me.

Excuse me?

What, exactly, is it that lets you think you know even the first thing about me, or my life, especially my career?

I think you were better not saying anything, Allyson.

No really, what point was there to that post, other than to be deliberatly baiting for your own personal amusement, Allyson?

I'm sorry Sean. None of the several points in my post have anything to do with whether or not you're confusing something you aspire to as a career with what you actually do. I feel a great sense of sympathy for your work predicament, I've gone for a week or so without being able to find temp work while unemployed and scared, as well. It's stressful.

The points I was driving at with the example was that until I got too busy, I was planning on arguing with you as well, and could have as easily been the target of your rage-on, and also that I don't think ita was unfairly singling you out in questioning you, because I was going to as well. And I don't think we argue particularly often.

I would also like to say that this is the second time today that you've assumed insidious motives to someone (ita using you as a whipping boy, me deliberately baiting you).

I'm not out to get you. I can't speak for ita, but I don't think she, or anyone else is out to get you, either.

I'm not a psychologist, or course, but it seems that whatever is eating at you is Getting Bigger. And you're lashing out in ways that are harmful to you, and disturbing for me.

Only because it's now in the 'Crazy thread and staying silent does not seem to be the flavor of the day:

I was going to respond to Sean's initial post about his feelings about the "Hollywood" thing, because his position sounded weak. He was claiming something about his career as a filmmaker, but he doesn't actually have a career as a filmmaker, so that his post was based on a false assertion about himself, and that bugged me. Then ita posted that her friends who, in fact, do have careers as filmmakers, do not share his feelings, I figured my post was a moot point.

Allyson, he actually said his career was in filmmaking, which I understood to mean that he makes a living off of movies. And isn't that what he does? So what makes ita's friends any more or less qualified be offended by the "Hollywood" thing than Sean? And are you seriously suggesting that Sean made a false assertion about being offended by something Bush said?

Sean's post, and subsequent "apology" sucked.

Yes, but I'm also assuming you must have missed Sean's subsequent unqualified apology to ita, here. Or else you're just choosing to ignore it.

But it's important for me to say to you, as someone who's been a dick (and will probably be a dick, again), that you are responsible for your reactions. The way you reacted was not ita's fault. It's yours.

You are referring to yourself as having been a dick, right? Cause if you meant it the other way it's pretty damn offensive.

Look, I think we all agree that Sean crossed the line, and I'm sorry about the crappy timing and all, but isn't there some point where people have to refrain from jumping on him? Wouldn't that point be post-apology?

isn't there some point where people have to refrain from jumping on him? Wouldn't that point be post-apology?

Yes, please. Excoriating someone after an apology is just nasty.

I'm sorry Sean. None of the several points in my post have anything to do with whether or not you're confusing something you aspire to as a career with what you actually do. I feel a great sense of sympathy for your work predicament, I've gone for a week or so without being able to find temp work while unemployed and scared, as well. It's stressful.

Allyson, I honestly can't tell if you're being sincere here, or incredibly patronizing.

I don't think that Sean's job title is relevant to whether or not you think he was rude to ita. No one living in LA or NYC should have to show their artistic cred card before being allowed to take offense when a politician slams their city.

Allyson, he actually said his career was in filmmaking, which I understood to mean that he makes a living off of movies. And isn't that what he does?

I understood it to mean that he was currently employed as a filmmaker.

I want my career to be in writing, but am a secretary.

Allyson, I honestly can't tell if you're being sincere here, or incredibly patronizing.

No. New to LA, couldn't find a steady job, went without temp work and a way to make rent, utterly terrified.

Holy carpe diem.

You are referring to yourself as having been a dick, right? Cause if you meant it the other way it's pretty damn offensive.

Not Allyson, but I'd bet even money, any amount, that she meant the former. She has always been as harsh and blunt in her examination of her own blow-ups as of anyone else's, and she values this community. What I got from that statement of hers was that she holds Sean responsible for his reactions and his blowing-up precisely because she's done the same in the past and likely will in the future, and she knows in her calmer moments that her reactions and her blowing-up are her responsibility.

Gah. All the ill-feeling is making my stomach twist. I came to the original kerfuffle late and will totally cop to the fact that even if I'd come to it in time I probably wouldn't have said anything, not because it's okay to blow up at ita but because I'm fairly in awe of ita and hesitant to speak up for her when I know she can do so on her own behalf so eloquently. Which is possibly not such a great course of action, as it leads to stomach-twisting on ita's part, which is no good.

And now there's the new kerfuffle. So, yeah. Sean did make a full and unqualified apology, and IMO Allyson is being blunt and rough but not unsympathetic -- Sean's clearly hugely upset in a way that she recognized from experience, ita's her friend, she needed to say her piece. Dragging it out further feels like picking at scabs.