I've read the books, love the books, and am really glad there wasn't a huge amount of verbatim Tolkien.

I'm not saying there should be a lot more. The speeches that were used were very effective. I'm saying when you use a speech word for word, have the courage to use the words. In a fealty/oath-based society, oathbreaking is powerful stuff. Smite is better for the Witch-king, because killing? That horse has bolted. Biggest undead creature active in middle-earth needs some smiting.

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Not sure what ypu mean by the horse bolting. Thje word is overused? Is "love" overused? Some words see a lot of use because they are the most clear and direct way of stating something. Smite sounds weaker than kill and strength is what is needed there--especially as it's a woman saying the line.

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Actually, I was shocked at how much dialog made it to the screen unchanged. Re-arranged, moved from one character to another, and edited, but still very recognizeable for a geek like me. It was a pleasant surprise.

I'm with you, Consuela. Just about every time that they managed to include a memorable section of dialogue, even if it was truncated, I got the chills. I had convinced myself that they would cut out the Wheel of Fire speech, but not only did they include [most of] it, but they moved it to the key emotional moment in the entire film. And when Elrond began the linnod of Gilraen's, and Aragorn ended it? I nearly shouted, "Yes!" in the theater.

And they were pretty subtle about some of the references. I was giggling at my first FotR viewing over Gandalf's line "If you're referring to that business with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door," and my mother (not a Tolkien fan) was wondering what the heck I found so funny.

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Yeah, that Hobbit joke was hysterical. Months after I first saw FOTR, I'd remember it and snicker quietly.

Glad to hear I'm not alone. The thing for me is, that scene where Sam thinks Frodo's dead, and takes the Ring, I always cry at. It's the most emotional moment in the book for me. And that whole scene with Gollum was just...so against the characters. Sam wouldn't leave Frodo, and Frodo always trusts in Sam, while he's got any sanity left. It's just like the thing in the mines of Moria. Never mind that they're miles underground, surrounded by orcs, in this incredibly claustrophobic place, Peter Jackson has to add Falling!Slabs!of!Doom. These scenes don't need daft plot twists, there's plenty of tension in them already.

Anyway. Ahem. I like lots of all the movies, I'm just quite bitter about a few moments.

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Speak for yourself.

Beat me to it. I use smite on an almost daily basis.

Not sure what ypu mean by the horse bolting.

I took that as a 'But he's already dead' thing. I could be wrong.

Smite sounds weaker than kill and strength is what is needed there--especially as it's a woman saying the line.

See, I just don't see where smite sounds weak at all. To me it always rings stonger than kill, maim, or even defenestrate. I think she would've come across a lot more badass with Smite. I also don't think it's a word people need to ponder overly much. It just seems a natural thing to me.

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I also don't think it's a word people need to ponder overly much. It just seems a natural thing to me.

That might be because you use it in daily conversation (I prefer slay, slaughter, annihilate, myself). But outside of the hardcore, I bet not that many do.

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Also a fan of smitings and bitings. (Also, of Lloyd Alexander.) But:

But smiting is not a word people use in conversation. It's a word we are more comfortable reading rather than hearing.

Fair point. I think if Eowyn had been given more to say, "smite" might have fit into the speech, but since her lines were so brief (and the scenery so busy/rushed), I can understand simplifying. But "smite" really fits in with the declaiming she does in the book.

(Also, Tolkien went to some trouble to come up with lines that sound good aloud -- rhythmic, sometimes assonant even in prose -- and I'm always sorry to lose that high old style. That high old style that "the mass audience" supposedly hates or fails to comprehend.)

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That might be because you use it in daily conversation (I prefer slay, slaughter, annihilate, myself). But outside of the hardcore, I bet not that many do.

Use in conversation, no. Have heard it often enough to not have to stop and think, I figure yes. Hell between the bible and the Simpsons, most of North America is covered.

Annihilate is better than alright. I've also been known to use defenestrate because of the comedy aspect. For something particularly brutal, my old roomate was partial to 'Hatefuck'.

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I think that "smote" worked better for Gandalf than "smite" would have worked for Eowyn. Since Gandalf is way the heck older than Eowyn and was telling an important story when saying, "smote", I'm more comfortable with the more archaic sounding word coming out of his mouth. Hearing Eowyn say "kill" rather than "smite" worked for me. "Smite" seems kinda fussy to me, and she's not a fussy woman.

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That perspective makes sense, Calli. Especially considering you don't get to hear the original context of the speech, which makes "smite" seem much less fussy/old-fashioned. Just as "smote his ruin on the mountainside" looks a lot better than "smote his ass and kicked him off a cliff", "Begone if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him" -- well, the whole context also foregrounds the don't put the word kill next to the word undead problem.

Generally speaking, I didn't expect much in the way of high style from the film's dialogue, so every time I got something nice I was pleasantly surprised; but at key moments where, you know, I happened to know the original lines by heart, and they didn't especially try to reproduce the tone of the original, I can't help but be disappointed.

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